In today's episode, we're taking on a topic head on, something we rarely do. My name is Jonathan Cutrell. You're listening to Developer Team. My goal on the show is to help driven developers like you find clarity, perspective, and purpose in their careers. You do not have to work long hours to succeed. Let me say this very clearly so everyone who's in this audience understands it. You do not have to sleep in the office. You do not have to put in 50, 60, 70 hours at work to succeed. You do not have to give up your friendships. You do not have to sacrifice your mental or physical health to succeed. This is a conversation. This is a common thread that you will hear from founders, from very successful engineers, people that you might admire. People who are indeed successful may tell you this, and it's easy to believe because the story itself seems rational. It sounds like in order to succeed, I need to put it all out on the field. I need to extend myself and work hard. This kind of lines up with, at least from the American culture side of things, the story we are told about how to succeed when we're children and all the way through growing up into adulthood, that hard work, intensity, the kinds of words that you would hear being thrown around. In a world-class athletic environment are applied to our startup lives or the lives that whatever you are doing with your career, whether you're in a startup or not, it doesn't really make a difference. This idea that hard work will ultimately be the key to your success and that hard work is interchangeable. This is a critical point. Interchangeable with overwork. Hard work is interchangeable with work that pushes you to your limit, that requires you to say no to social events. It requires you to say no to the extra hour of sleep, to say no to weekends and no to those vacations that they promised you would be unlimited. It is not necessary and it's also not rational. We're going to break down a few kind of basic rules. Reasons why this is true. If someone is telling you that in order to succeed as a young programmer that you have to spend the extra nights and weekends, you're going to have to extend yourself, you're going to have to work hard, translating to overwork, that you have to sacrifice. They're wrong and you don't have to listen to it. You can live your life. In a balanced way. As a brand new programmer. New to the field. And you can succeed. Now that doesn't mean that it's easy and it also doesn't mean that everyone who's listening to this show has equal opportunity or access to do what I'm talking about. For some people. This may be harder than others. And I empathize with that. Certainly don't mean to make it sound like it's easy. Or. Like it's as. As easy for you as it would be for me. But frankly, it's not easy for anyone. Being successful is not easy. But. The answer. When something isn't easy. Shouldn't just be. To work harder longer. The answer to solving hard problems. Is not always just pure energy and time and grit. Now before we go down the road. Saying well there's an arbitrary line that you're drawing Jonathan. That there's a line where it's overworking for you but it's not for me. Well there's actually. Some pretty good research around this we all share. A common kind of need. The common physiological need for rest. For example. And so there is good research to show. That working for. Over 50 hours a week specifically. Is what the research shows. Produces not only diminishing gains. But someone who works 70 hours. Produces. Exactly the same. Value. Exactly the same amount of productivity. As someone working 55 hours. For that specific study. You're working four times. As much. For the same amount of gain. This isn't a smart use of time. It's a low leverage use of your time. And time. Is your most. Critical resource. The one that we all share. The one that is. Not something we can recover. Another study shows. That for every five hours. You work above 47 hours. So let's say you work 52 hours. Where your colleague works. 47 hours. You might get a 1% raise. In your salary. In other words. For the people who work 52 hours. They make 1% more. Than the people who work 47 hours. If you do the calculation. On your personal salary. Whatever it is. I can almost guarantee you. That five hours a week. For the entire year. Is not worth that 1% difference. If you're like most people. Who take around two weeks worth of vacation. Then that five extra hours. Per week. Translates to 250 hours. And if you were to. Use like a base salary. Of $100,000. Or even $200,000. 1% of that salary. Is only $2,000. That's before taxes. Those 250 hours. Over $2,000. Is $8 an hour. Now before you answer. The person who's working. 47 hours. A week. Versus the 52 hours a week. Based on this study. If they're making that same $200,000. Salary that you were making. Before you got your $2,000 raise. They're making $85 an hour. For every hour they work. Just to put a little more math behind this. The difference between what you make per hour. On that extra five hours. Per week. Is only. 80 cents. 80 cents per hour. That's what you are buying. With $250. 50 hours. Per year. So the math here. Simply doesn't check out. If you're just talking about. From the monetary side. But I also want to talk about. From the principal side. You may make the argument that. Well it's not just about the money. It's about the thing that I'm building. I want to build something great. And someone told me. That in order to build something great. Well you have to sacrifice. You have to sleep in the office sometimes. Sometimes you have to say no to the vacation. So you can get. The extra lines of code written. But I want to challenge this assumption. On one single basis. Why does it matter. That you do it now. That you do it. At 6 p.m. That you do it. On a Saturday. Rather than waiting. Until the next work day. Rather than waiting until the next time. That you would normally. Have allocated. To do work. Why does that matter? How does that change the quality. Of the product that you build. There's a strong case to say. That the quality of the product that you would build. Would be greater. If you weren't overworking. Developers listening to this show. Are probably painfully familiar. With deadlines. And this is. Simply just another form. Of a deadline. But it's one that's always looming. The constant pressure. To get more done. And in less time. Can really only confer. Two potential benefits. And of the two. Only one is potentially. Going to have a positive effect on you. The first. And the one that could have a positive benefit. On you. Is timing the market. In such a way that you're beating a competitor. To the market. In other words. You need to get this particular job done. You need to get this particular feature. Complete and shipped. And to the market. Before someone else beats you to the punch. If they beat you. Then all of the work that you're doing. Is not going to fulfill. Its actual potential. Now setting aside the argument. That it's likely that. You could have done something. To get to market sooner. That didn't involve overworking. This kind of external timing. That you probably don't have. Much control over. That has a lot of uncertainty attached to it. Might be the only situation. Where you could actually positively affect your career. By doing a bit of extra. Sprinting at the end of a project. In almost every other scenario. The overextension. Does not benefit you. And almost definitely harms you. And the product you're working on. The potential benefit. That I was talking about. The second potential benefit. Was not to you. It's to the company that you're working for. If the company has. Whether on purpose. Or accidentally. Created a culture. Where delivery is always rushed. Where you're always trying to get things done faster. Then it's possible. That the company is benefiting. From getting more from you. Than what you really signed on to give. In other words. The hypothesis of the working culture. Is that you're doing more. With the time that you have. If you're overworking. That's calendar time. You can deliver more per quarter. Or per year. If you're working more hours. And this is again. The rational side of our brains. That likes to treat our human side. In a kind of mechanistic way. Can we deliver more? Well do we have time? If we add more time. We can add more productivity. And voila. We can deliver more. But once again. We've already shown. That this isn't true. We actually dip in productivity. And go backwards. We start making errors. As we begin to overwork. So hopefully you see the case. Clearly for what it is. That overworking does not produce. A significant benefit for your career. It typically doesn't produce. A significant benefit for your company. Or your actual productivity. So what does it produce? This is the worst part of the story. Because as you begin to overwork. You are reinforcing this culture. If you have someone in your company. Who was successful. And they have stories of overworking. It's easy to attribute that person's success. To their overworking. This is a cause and effect error. That we're making. Additionally. If you begin to celebrate this overworking. For example. Someone stays late. And everybody the next day. Applauds them. Someone works over the weekend. And they get a special bonus. For extending their time. Then the culture. Whether it's intending to or not. Is encouraging future overworking. We've already talked about. Why overworking is bad. But now we're creating a culture. That doesn't question. Whether overworking is bad. On an ongoing basis. And instead. Invests in encouraging that behavior further. This is a pure definition. Of a toxic workplace. The interesting thing is. It may not feel toxic. You may feel like. People are just putting in. A little more effort. That they're really committed to their work. That they're passionate about what they're doing. But the problem is. That this goes unchecked. When this kind of behavior. And demeanor towards your work. Goes unchecked. It can spin out of control. And create. Situations that are for example. Inequitable. Perhaps there are people in your company. Who for some obligation or another. Are literally not capable. Of putting in extra hours. Does this mean that those people. Are not producing value for the company. Does this mean. That they aren't committed to their work. That they aren't passionate about their work. Just because they have. A different set of circumstances. Absolutely not. And this is why you. As a software engineer. Why you as a software engineering manager. Or director or VP or CTO. Whoever you are that's listening to this. You establish these boundaries. Not just because. You want to tell people. How much you care about them. Not just because. You have the resources to do that. But because you actually. Want to create a company. That can sustain itself. Because you don't want to burn out. Your individuals. You want them. To continue working. And producing value in the long run. Because you believe. That the research is true. That actually overworking. Does not produce additional value. You commit to these boundaries. Not simply because. You're a humanist. Or because you think it's important. To have work-life balance. But because this is a successful way. To run a company. This is a successful way. To run your career. Overworking. Overworking. Is not a path. To success. Is a path. To toxic workplace culture. And finally. It's actually intellectually lazy. If all we do. Is rely on overwork. To get us to the next spot. To impress our superiors. Then we're ignoring. The actual outcomes. We know the outcomes suffer. From overwork. It's lazy. To use overwork. As a heuristic for commitment. As a heuristic for dependability. As a heuristic for productivity. Instead. We should do the hard work. Of finding the right things. To spend our time on. Prioritizing. And measuring what matters. Asking people for personal sacrifices. Is a lazy way. To identify who will be. Effective. Who will be impactful. Who will actually deliver. Value in their role. Overwork. Is a brute force algorithm. For finding a path. Don't rely on overwork. It is a lazy. And toxic way. To build your career. Thank you for listening to today's episode of developer T. I hope you understand the passion. That I have for this. And the backing. The research that backs this. Even if there are large companies. You know large organizations. That would directly go against this. Even if they have anecdotal. Proof. In their situations. That say otherwise. I'd like to challenge you. To look at both your own personal experiences. Trust your intuition. And go and look at the data. These are the three ways. That you can go. And actually research this for yourself. Don't trust me on this. Actually go and verify what I'm saying. Overwork. Is not the path to success. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this. If you think somebody else needs to hear this. This is not a typical ask on this show. But please share this episode. This episode is highly applicable. It's particularly relevant right now. And I hope you will share it. If you think somebody needs to hear it. Otherwise. If you would like to continue listening to. Episodes like this. Hearing content like this. Subscribe to whatever podcasting app you're currently using. And if you want to continue the conversation. Head over to our discord community. That's developertea.com. Slash discord. Thanks so much for listening. And until next time. Enjoy your tea.