Do you feel like you're not learning enough, quickly enough, as a software engineer? That is the feeling that I talk about amongst other things with today's guest, Quincy Larson. And if you'd missed out on the first part of my interview with Quincy, I suggest you go back and listen to that part first. Quincy is, of course, the founder and creator of Free Code Camp, which is something that many of you probably either came to this show as a result of, you actually heard about Developer Tea because of Free Code Camp, or you are going through it right now. Freecodecamp.org. And of course, Freecodecamp.org slash donate if you want to support other engineers who are going through the beginning of their career. And by the way, Quincy, just to be clear, did not pay us in any way to plug that here on the show. Thank you so much to Quincy for joining me. Let's get straight into the interview with Quincy Larson. And that feeling is something I'd love to hear your thoughts on, the feeling of inadequacy, because you're dealing with a lot of people who are probably invulnerable points in their lives, especially people who are changing careers, or they're at the beginning of their career, they have a lot of uncertainty. And there's a mountain of learning in front of them. Curious, do you see a lot of people who are in that vulnerable place? And what advice do you have for them when you encounter them? Well, empathy is very important. And it's one of the things that I perceived a lack of when I was learning the code. And keep in mind, I'm a middle class white male who has a graduate degree. Imagine if you're somebody who's been working as a cashier whose job just evaporated or a server at a restaurant. And you don't have all those benefits of those layers of privilege and those layers of like general, like, oh yeah, I see how this works. I understand this system so I'm not afraid of it. I understand how higher education works. For example, a lot of people don't have that benefit. So for them, it could be even more daunting. And one of the things that we do is we just try to frame everything as realistically as possible. We start from the premise coding is hard. And in fact, when you create a new free code camp account, I added this blurb at the top when you first get into free code camp. It basically tells you like, this is going to be hard. Anybody who tells you that learning code is easy is trying to sell you something, right? Because it's going to take years. And you're going to be daunted and you're going to be baffled and you're going to have test telling you failed failed failed. You're going to have, you know, your interpreter telling you error error and you need to be able to power through that. And the most important thing is to know that everybody goes through this process. A lot of people don't remember it. They don't remember what it was like learning the code because it's so long ago. Maybe they were one of the lucky people who got a computer when they were a kid and their parents encouraged them to learn programming or maybe they just had a natural inclination toward it early on. If they have years and years of extra experience, that counts. I mean, that definitely speeds up the rate at which they can learn new things. So I would tell people, you know, I learned when I was 30, I didn't have a lot of experience with programming. It was, you know, undaunted, essentially. And I think that more people, if they can remain undaunted and if they can just power through the doubt, then they can learn it too. So the community aspect is really important and just having a support network. And I think a lot of people can find that on Twitter. They can find that through like subreddits. They can find that through different forums and discord groups. They can find it on the free code camp forum. There are lots of ways that you can find kind of your tribe and have them have your back and help push you forward. And I think that that is absolutely key. But the most important thing again, just know that this is hard. Know that anybody who says programming is easy has just forgotten how hard it was when they were first started. I agree with this. And I think there are different kinds of hard, right? And I think this is where people go wrong, the perception that I've heard from a lot of people who are not, you know, totally outside of this industry. And the kind of people who view coders as super smart geeks, right? That's a perception outside of this industry or outside of the many industries. The perception that they have when they start getting interested in maybe figuring out, oh, maybe I could do this. The misperception that I see very commonly is, oh, this takes a lot of specific knowledge that I don't have to even get started. There's a basis of this really specific knowledge or there's some base and much higher than average IQ required to be able to do this thing to be able to learn to code. And oh, I have to have, you know, very deep mathematical. I've gotten asked very specific questions like, do you need a lot of trigonometry to be able to code? And, you know, in my head, I'm thinking, I don't remember the last time I used trigonometry in my job directly at least. You know, maybe there's some point at which I did use it, but it was certainly, you know, nothing deep in my trig, you know, the class that I took about trigonometry wasn't the thing that made me, you know, a capable of becoming a developer. So I think there's these two kinds of hard, right? The kind of hard that I'm talking about right now is the intellectual or book knowledge hard, right? The hard is you must have done a lot to get here kind of hard, right? It's difficult in the sense that you've done a lot of preparation, there's a lot of investment, there's a lot that has gone into it already. And the second kind of hard is this is mental fortitude difficulty. This is commitment difficulty. This is continuous and repeated failure after failure and still being able to get up and do it again kind of difficulty, right? Really different kind of hard. And that's not to say that being a developer doesn't have its intellectual like pieces of the puzzle, right? To be able to break down a difficult set of features that's not trivial. It's not something that just anybody can do. But I believe that the hardest part of learning how to code is less about book knowledge. Less about linear algebra and it's more about persistence and about commitment and about taking the long path, right? Taking the path that helps you understand how you fail and how you can learn from each of those failures. Yeah, I agree. And one thing I'll say is learning to code is a motivational challenge. It's not an intellectual challenge. I do believe that any sufficiently motivated person can learn to code if they stick with it and if they keep at it and if they actually apply basic common sense, well, I shouldn't say common sense, but like if they're continuing to push their boundaries, if they stay in their comfort zone and they're just like, hey, look, I've got a cool web page and years later that are like, yeah, maybe another really cool web page is just similar to this. They haven't really expanded their horizons. They haven't really pushed out and learned new things. So I would definitely encourage people. One of the biggest pieces of feedback, you know, we get at free code campus, like, oh, you should cover this, you should cover this. And we want to keep the curriculum completely linear. We don't want it to explode into a whole bunch of different electives where people don't know what to take. A lot of other coding tools, like learning resources, you can just choose, like, what language you want to learn? You know, what database you want to learn? It's all Omikaze. It's all Omikaze style. And that's great, but you quickly run into like, oh, I learned the basic because of like six different languages, but I don't actually know how to build anything. Or I feel like I'm, you know, retreading ground that I don't need to retread at this point and that I should be going on and, you know, going deeper into the woods, so to speak. So by virtue of having like an extra, you know, a single linear curriculum that everybody goes through, we had the benefit of being able to kind of sequence things in a way that's optimal and make sure that we're kind of having a continuous, you know, piling on a pressure. But it's not, at no point does it become overwhelming. It's just like there's just a slow build up and you're using more and more of your programming skills with each passing day. Yeah. Yeah, a couple of years ago, we did an episode where I talked about this specific problem, the idea that you can kind of start down the trail and then return back to where you were and start down another trail and return back to where you were and never get anywhere. Essentially, you can kind of know what is at the beginning of those trails, but nothing beyond that. And I recommend it at the time that you, and this is just a characteristic, you commit to six months in one direction or learning one particular technology to a further depth, right? Whether that technology is a language or a framework and the associated things that go with it. And that was a recommendation at the time. Six months is, you know, substitute your number that is as large or so as six months, maybe it's a year or whatever it is. But certainly not two weeks, right? It's very easy to get, I won't say bored, but feeling like almost a sense of guilt that you haven't learned other things, right? You're learning one thing and it doesn't feel like you're progressing incredibly fast and it's not as interesting as it was on day one. And this other thing came up on hacker news and they're saying that it's the big thing, right? And so you're going to set aside the thing that you have to go and chase the big thing. And that happens every two weeks, right? Or probably even faster than that. And so it's very easy to imagine that you're falling behind and that the only way to keep up is to swap out your learning material rather than focusing on that pathway. So that's a really good endorsement for your approach, which is much more continuous and focused in one direction. I could say, I want to ask you, I know we've kind of run up on our time here, but I want to ask you about something that you mentioned that you're doing now and it's kind of a unique overlap. You mentioned before we started recording that free code camp is starting down this pathway of developing data science curriculum. And also this is where the overlap is that you are a fully non-profit organization. And this is very interesting for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that you're developing a curriculum for people to kind of expand. This is kind of fundamentally new in some ways that much later stage developers could probably take this curriculum and learn a lot, right? This isn't just for pure beginners, although I'm sure you're developing in a way that beginners can handle it. But also people like me who are a decade in to their career or multiple decades could take this this curriculum and learn something. But also you're doing this through this nonprofit lens. I'm curious, how is this how does this work? How does it work to build a product for people? And to this level, right, to this level of exposure. Because in the context for this is I know a lot of companies that are built on the idea of drawing professional interest, right, the idea of bettering my career is a lucrative business. It really is. But you're doing this through the nonprofit pathway. And I'm curious about how that is going to work. Number one, and number two, why did you choose the nonprofit pathway? Yeah. So, first of all, we from the very beginning, like I put free at the beginning of free co-camp because I knew I wanted it to be free. The reasoning for that is I wanted it to be accessible. And the most significant, you know, stumbling block to being able to access things is often money. Most people on earth, about 60% of them live off less than $10 a day. Think about that. Think about the fact that like most of those people are unblocked, unbanked. They don't have like a credit card. They don't have a means through which they could potentially pay for an educational product if it requires a credit card. So I was like, well, we should just do it free. And then if it's a 501c3 donor supported nonprofit, we can just, you know, have a very, very small percentage in our case, less than 0.5% of people who use free co-camp ultimately support it. So we have half a million people use free co-camp every day, but we only have about 7,000 people who donate to free co-camp every month. And that's another thing that I discovered from a fairly business perspective is monthly recurring donations are a very powerful tool for being able to, you know, predict how much revenue you're going to have and thus budget accordingly. And we've been able to very carefully build out our team and expand as we've gotten more and more monthly recurring donors. And it's very stable. And with the global recession and everything, we went down a little bit, but we were able to kind of slowly come back in terms of monthly recurring donors. So access is absolutely the key. It's the same reason we do everything self-paced. Same reason everything works in a browser on free co-camp and we try to keep it as data light as possible for all the people that are, you know, on very finite data plans in Africa, South Asia, even here in North America, there are some people who just have finite data and they don't want to download gigabytes worth of, you know, video and stuff like that. So those are all considerations, but it's all kind of arrayed around this notion of access. Now on the note of the data science curriculum, that's, we're calling it the data science curriculum, but it's actually just an extension of our core curriculum. We're just adding a whole bunch of math, machine learning and data science courses to the end of that line. So I talk about it being linear. You can start just knowing nothing about coding and you can gradually, you know, go through the different certifications of which they're currently 10 and soon there will be 18 or 19. And you can just completely skip the lessons, just take the certification projects where you build five different projects and you get all their tests to pass and then you can climb the certification. But you can just jump wherever you want on that line. If you want to, if you're an experienced developer, you can jump right into the data science part where you're going to be learning a whole lot of, you know, linear algebra, calculus, statistics, and you're going to be learning a whole lot of, you know, supervise and supervised and, you know, neural network type machine learning. So it's designed with that intention of being able to just jump in wherever you want, but knowing that you're potentially skipping important stuff that you may have to go back and review. But you know what has been covered and you can easily jump back and review that. The other thing I'll point out is that there are natural kind of jumping off points in the curriculum where like after you finish all the full stack JavaScript, you know, no JS, SQL, stuff like that, you can potentially go ahead and get a full stack developer job. And then you can come back later in your career after you've gotten your bearing as a developer, then you can learn some even more advanced skills and eventually maybe become like a machine learning engineer or a data scientist. That's very exciting. It's very exciting for a lot of reasons. One is certainly that the access, you know, it is something that we can trust here that you have invested for a long time in this idea of accessibility and that you'll continue to do that. And I'm really excited about the idea that I can kind of return back to what in my head when I think about bootcamp type courses, classes, all of these learning resources that we're all used to hearing about, I think about, oh, these are like jumpstart, you know, a lot of adrenaline, early career, you know, that's what these are for. But this is kind of breaking that mold and that's really exciting. I want to ask a couple of final questions here. The first one is what do you wish more people would ask you about? I wish more people would ask me about the nature of like diminishing returns and learning. I mentioned coding boot camps just a second ago and I think coding boot camps are good. And I have lots of friends who've gone through coding boot camps and been able to get good developer jobs afterward. I do think that the notion of trying to like jam it in like the adrenaline shot, as you mentioned, is not as useful as if you just plan things out and if you take your time. And so a lot of this comes back to my general working model of education that if you learn a subject for even like 30 minutes a day, but if you learn it every single day for years, you're going to get very good at it. That same, you know, 12 weeks of intensive coding boot camp time, if you were to take that same number of hours, stretch it out over a year, it would probably be dramatically more impactful than that 12 week period. Now, there are people who might push back like, well, you know, that immersive kind of like all out learning process helps jumpstart things and maybe it does. But it also involves, you know, like for going work and in some cases sleep and other important things in order to be able to have that learning experience. So one of the things that when I designed free code camp was I designed it with the notion that it's going to take years to complete. And sure enough, I get people who come back like four years in like, hey, I started free code camp four years ago and now I'm a developer. That's awesome, right? That's what it was designed to do. It was designed to be self-paced. It's okay to start and stop. Life happens. Life gets in the way. And when you come back, maybe you'll need to review a little bit more, but you still get that nice linear road ahead of you of what you need to do. There's not the ambiguity of like, which I learned next because we've already consulted with industry and with professors and figured out what the kind of composite job market looks like and designed our curriculum with that in mind so that people have marketable skills and also have core fundamental skills that they can build upon as those, you know, as the market shifts over time. So yeah, I think if people think in terms of like, if you just learned 30 minutes a day and you pace yourself and you take it as a marathon and not a sprint, that's going to serve you very well. And if you can plan ahead a few years, it's hard to tell somebody who's completely unemployed right now, plan ahead. I can totally understand the hair on fire problem of needing to get income and provide for your family. But that might just be working, you know, a relatively menial job and then doing free code camp or another learning resource at night after your job and gradually ramping up your skills rather than going further into debt to go get a graduate degree or a tenticoat boot. We'll be right back with the rest of the interview with Quincy Larson. Today's episode is sponsored by Square. 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You can connect your app to the all-in-one payments device that merchants love with a simple rest API by heading over to developertea.com slash square. That's developertea.com slash square. Thanks again to Square for sponsoring today's episode of Developer Tea. Now let's get back to our interview with Quincy Larson. It's what you said. It had us me kind of looping back over kind of the mechanics going on here of spreading out and taking your time. And it's something that I think a lot of people discounts. In fact, I know a lot of people discount it. It's been shown that people discount it, especially in an overworking culture. This idea that we either are being productive or not. And that being productive is a conscious activity that it's a continuous effortful activity. And so in this presumption, in this situation, if you were to believe this, well, you could just string it all back to back as much as possible. And go 16 hours a day. Or if you can find a way to keep yourself from sleeping, you could go 24 hours a day and get the same or more benefit because you're doing it in less time. But this is demonstrably wrong, right? And of course, it's probably not good to go to the extreme opposite where you're only doing it for two minutes a day. But there's something very important about downtime. There's something very important about allowing things to sink in and giving your brain time to process it unconsciously as difficult as it seems and as magical as it seems. It's not magical. It's science. Right? And I think this is part of the reason why it's easily rejected is that we don't feel it. We don't see it. It seems like pseudoscience. When you tell somebody one of the best ways that you can help your brain think is to take a walk. That seems just too good to be true in some ways. In other ways, it seems fantastical or it seems, you know, for whatever reason, it seems mushy, right? It doesn't seem like the right answer. But a lot of the time that is the right answer. We give ourselves something to think about. We spend two hours or three hours or whatever going through some material and then you spend two or three hours doing almost nothing. Like go exercise or play a video game or spend some time with your children if you have children. These are critical components of what it means to be a thinking human being and we often just kind of discount them as we'll get to that when we have time. But what we should be doing instead is prioritizing it. And by doing what you're saying, Quincy, I think drawing this out and doing it over a period of time, you're giving yourself the freedom in some ways to absorb that stuff to let it, I don't know, let it flourish in a way, right? Throw in your brain so you can create new attachments to it. And there's a lot of research on this. This is not just my opinion. This is not like a new idea that's kind of, this is a pretty well established important part of learning. Yeah, and I hope that this can be applied over time to the university experience because it's incredibly expensive to take four years of your life and go live on campus somewhere. I mean, it's a formative experience, sure. I was actually a commuter student and I don't really have that experience. I just kind of like worked and lived in a department of campus and went in for my classes really early in the morning and then got done with it. But I do think that there's something to having that kind of academy style experience. But why is it four years long? Like could it be a year long and then just have people come back in for like a week at the time or maybe just have people check in like an hour a day and have the entire academic calendar dragged out across ten years instead of being four years of really dense kind of in-person experience? Those are things that I think could potentially not only help people learn more effectively but could dramatically reduce the cost of higher education, which is out of control in the United States. I mean, it's absurd how much student that we have. And if we just wipe out the student debt, it's just going to come right back because it's a systematic problem. I'm not saying I oppose wiping out the student debt. I think that forgiveness is very powerful and it could be a good solution in this case. But we need to tackle the underlying problems of why education has become so expensive. And at the same time, its efficacy is questionable. You know, like the average wage, I mean, you can argue this is due to other kind of things going on within the employment market, the labor market system. But average wages are going down and costs are going up. Or average wages like real average wages are probably going down, but they're definitely flat in nominal terms. And at the same time, you know, more and more jobs are saying, hey, you should have a master's degree for this. Or, you know, and the jobs that you didn't need to use to have a university degree to get, a lot of them now require a university degree. So it's become a big social mobility issue as well. Right. I think if we, if we can step back and kind of rethink higher education from first principles and make it more about learning over time and acknowledging that there's diminishing returns to, you know, stacking people in the classroom and having them cram for a sentence period of time, that if it's just more relaxed, like you said, you know, taking a walk, and this goes back to work life balance as well. There are a lot of issues in the United States and definitely overseas, you know, in China, this is huge. People work like 60, 70, 80 hours a week. And what's the benefit? Like their productivity is nose diving after probably 40 or 50 hours and yet they're still at the office just because it's kind of like this toxic work culture. So I think, I think if you kind of unpack this notion of like, if programmers can only code effectively, productively for like three or four hours a day, why do they need to work eight hours a day, you know, or for me personally, I don't take days off. I just work every day and I work about four to six hours a day, maybe four to eight hours. I mean, some days, if the service is on fire, I'm going to keep working. But you know, like generally, I just like to have that consistent rhythm through my day. And then we can question like, do we really need to have, you know, this five day work week or could it be spread out or could a lot more work be remote? I'm really going off into the weeds on this answer to your question, but I think it has some implications if we were to really think about the way that society is structured around this notion of like clocking time and having these very specific epochs in people's life where they're like, you're a student. Okay, now you're a worker. The reality is we're all students like our entire lives, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. And we're all workers from most of our lives, unless we're lucky enough to be able to retire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it is a profound issue. It's definitely one of those things that we kind of bought into, you know, 100, I guess 100 years ago, 200 years ago, this, you know, they get our day and treating your job as this containerized thing that is totally separated from your, whatever else your life is, right? And doing so, we went down a path that's very hard to come back from because we established things, you know, once you establish these kind of society-wide systemic patterns to undo them would require something at that same level. And it would also cost something and it's, it's, it costs less to implement something new at that so that high social level. It costs less to implement it for the first time than it does to unimplement it to remove it because the, the process of, you know, replacing this process, of replacing this system of day-to-day workday, you know, people believing that 9 to 5 is somehow a sacred work hours, culturally speaking, you know, this is going to take a, a, either a drastic shift in culture because evidence is not enough, right? You can say it until we're blue in the face that this is a remnant of, you know, a time when machines, when people were treated like machines and we're still doing it even though people are very much not machines. And even in the most knowledge-based, you know, professions, people are still working these eight hour days. And the, the, it's a huge hurdle, right? It's a huge hurdle because it's such a system. It's the same kind of large hurdle as trying to, you know, uproot a, a university system that has so much momentum, right? It has such a long history of momentum. How do you uproot that? Well, you can't do it by just presenting an argument, right? There has to be something else. And I'm saying all this, not leading up to any particular recommendation because I don't know. I don't know how we change it. I think we can do a little bit at a time, but I think some of this is going to be generally generational changes as, you know, younger generations come into a position of power in companies and that kind of thing. They might start to change that tide. But for the most part, these are really hard problems to solve. And if you're running a company, these are the kinds of problems, you know, when you, when you take a moment to sit back and say, how can I make the world better? Actually, this is a pretty good way, right? And these are the kinds of problems that you can solve, the working culture problems that would, that could drastically change at least the people that you are responsible for, the people you're leading. Yeah. And I would say that, you know, university, I would never tell people like, you're all about a university and just study free co-camp or, you know, anything like that because I do think university education, especially if you're getting a computer science degree, which is the degree I would recommend everybody get if you are considering going to university or if you're in university and you have the luxury of being able to change without having to spend a whole lot of extra time in university. Computer science degrees are definitely the best degree to get in terms of like expected income and job opportunity and flexibility. I mean, it really is like the liberal arts degree of the 21st century and many respects. It's the ultimate kind of Swiss army knife degree. Yeah, I mean, there are, there are intrinsic interests in higher education that, but I think a lot of people realize that this would be more optimal and this pandemic has been a great opportunity to experiment with some of these modalities. I was extremely disappointed that some of the universities chose to reopen during the pandemic. But a lot of universities didn't and a lot of universities really did try to bring more of their coursewear online. And yeah, so there's a lot of reason for optimism as well. I will say that free co-camp, we're going to continue to ensure that everybody on Earth that has an internet connection can learn these things and we launched Chinese and Spanish edition just yesterday. We spent years translating all these things and building up communities of contributors and translators and that's life now. And we're going to be rolling out other world languages. The world language is like what language you speak won't be an impediment either. You have to be fluent in English to be able to learn to code. And adding math and things like that, if you grow up in India or if you grow up in China, you probably don't need to do the calculus section or the linear algebra section. You probably covered that in high school and maybe in university. But like us Americans, we definitely need to go over a lot of that stuff because most people, I certainly didn't learn that stuff really exhaustively in university. So we're going to continue to present as robust an alternative to higher education as we can and more specifically to going back to school if you're mid-career. You don't want to have to enroll in night school and go get a graduate degree. That's a huge ask for people that have kids and mortgages and full-time jobs. And potentially like elderly parents that are caring for it. People shouldn't have to go back to school to be able to continue to advance in the workforce. So we're going to continue to hopefully be this engine of social mobility. One thing people can do if they're interested in learning about free code camp and learning about our mission is I recently shared a link to our data science curriculum and what we're hoping to build. We're planning to bring on lots of university professors probably part time in between their studies that can help us build out the math and computer science and machine learning curriculum. One of the things we're doing is we're trying to raise some money here to be able to do that because we're a very lean donor supported nonprofit. We only are total annual budget despite the fact that we delivered like 1.3 billion minutes of learning last year, which is the equivalent of 2,500 years of learning on free. Which is, you know, it means like right now as you and I speak to them, they're probably about 2,500 people using free code camp. That's incredible. Yeah, our total budget was half a million dollars. It was like $498,000. So it's hard to run a nonprofit, especially during a global recession and everything. But if anybody is interested in contributing to that, we're going to use that money to hire some professors to experience teachers. That's what we're looking for is people who have years and years of experience teaching math and computer science to help us design these curricula. And Darryl Silver, who was the founder of Thinkful and some other education startups for the past year, he's matching all donations 100% up to a while as well. So I just, I feel obligated since we are doing the fundraising. I'm terrible at like raising awareness of this, but I hope you don't mind me plugging that on the public. No, absolutely. Please. This is, this is incredibly helpful to people and to the industry. It's not just just to people who are looking to code, this is an industry level, important, important effort. So I appreciate what you do, Quincy, and I'm so thankful that you decided to join me on the show today and to move forward with this project that has become such a popular way for people kind of an open front door to the industry. So thank you for what you do. I have one last question for you. If you could give 30 seconds of advice to developers of all backgrounds and experience levels, what would you tell them? I have to think about this for a second. Probably going to think more than 30 seconds, but 30 seconds would be. But again, I would just reiterate like anybody who really wants to learn to code, it's not about how smart you are or anything like that. We all are descended from the same African tribes on the savannah. Like they didn't have computers back then. Right? There was no real aptitude to be selected for. If you want to learn programming and if you're serious about advancing your skills and opening up lots of opportunities, you can absolutely do it. It's just, it's a lot of hard work. It takes a lot of time. But you'll get there and the developer community is extremely supportive and we don't see this as a zero sum game. This is a rapidly growing field. Everybody's pushing things to the software layer. Developer jobs are going to become more and more bountiful as time progresses. So this is absolutely the right field for you, if you're interested. Yeah. Lindsey, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. I wish you the best in your quest to find experienced professors who can help teach us all data science. And thank you so much for what you do with free code camp. Where can people go to learn more? Sure. If you just go to freecocamp.org, when you create an account, I have like an email list that I send to like 4 million people each week. And you can just opt into that when you create your account. And then I'll be in your inbox every week with like, you know, I send free books, free courses, all kinds of stuff that is free and publicly available on the web to help you learn. Excellent. Thank you so much again. I'll talk to you soon, Quincy. Cheers. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode of Developer Tea and the last episode of Developer Tea, both of these were my interview with Quincy Larson. If you don't want to miss out on future episodes like this one, more interviews as well as the monologue type episodes. And perhaps many of you are listening only for the Friday refills. And I encourage you to subscribe and whatever podcasting app you're currently using. Once again, that Friday refill is coming up in just two days. So go ahead and subscribe. We do three episodes a week now of this show. So if you don't subscribe, you end up likely missing out. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. If you want to be a part of the Developer Tea Discord community, reach out to me on Twitter, at Developer Teaor you can email me at developertea@gmail.com. Thank you again to square for sponsoring today's episode. If you want to get started with the terminal API today, for both in person and in app payment experiences for virtually every platform and every payment type, head over to developertea.com slash square to get started. Thanks so much for listening. And until next time, enjoy your tea.