Hey everyone and welcome to Developer Tea. My name is Jonathan Cottrell and today is the second part of my interview with Pamela Vickers. Pamela and I sat down at Ancient City Ruby and we discussed a lot of different things including culture and all of the different parts that go into making a good culture. But we also discussed a little bit about conferences. Pamela speaks at conferences and we talked about what we enjoyed about Ancient City Ruby a little bit in this part of the interview. I hope you enjoy the second part of the interview with Pamela Vickers and while you're listening to this episode, make sure you go and subscribe to this podcast in iTunes or whatever podcasting application you use. Now let's get to the interview with Pamela Vickers. I loved your talk. I thought it was really interesting and Ernie and I were actually talking earlier about how much we love the fact that this is a developer conference but we're talking about things that aren't just development. Like you said, this applies whether you're talking about the workplace and it doesn't even have to be a tech workplace for that matter or your personal life, like your personal relationships. And I think this is something that's really important. I think this is something that's somewhat unique to the Ruby community. When I say unique, I say that a lot of other development communities in their conferences are probably going to focus more on sysadmin or whatever. A little bit more industry focused. Sure, yeah, which is fine. I think we get some of that from, what is it, Mensua. You know, MOTS is nice, so we are nice. So I think we... I think we have maybe from the start been kind of inward looking as well. I mean, some to a fault. Like I actually just unfollowed Ruby Dramas because I realized that's kind of a negative thing. It's funny that it existed but then it wasn't funny when I really thought about it. I've never heard of that. Okay, well there's a website that was... There was just, I feel like one summer where conferences just kept doing boneheaded things. So there was a website called Ruby Dramas and it was like... There have been... You know, five days since the last Ruby Drama and then it would have updates. So there's the Twitter handle for it and I followed it a long time ago. I guess the good news is I'd forgotten about it completely. So we haven't had a scandalous thing to happen. But I think we are very aware of community. Which is what I loved about it when I got started was I came from a C background where if you Google for a problem with a C problem, well, I mean, you're just not going to find much. Unless it's something very, very common. But with the Ruby community, even if you had a problem that was of your own making, there was usually someone that was willing to at least take a look. They might not have an answer but there were answers. There were people who were willing to look for an answer. So I think that is very valuable. I don't know if all conferences are that in tune with having, you know, human talks, I guess. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. portion of the conference, but we also have what Ernie called, you know, most people call these soft talks. Sure. Right. But I would say that they're just as, you know, applicable as any other talk is. So that's great. So here's perhaps the most obvious topic to talk to you about, which is something that Hampton actually pointed out this morning in his Rupi survey. What is it? 75% or maybe more, but 75% of Rupi developers. And I would say this acts sort of as a proxy for the development community in large, but I'm not sure about that. But they identify as male. And you're working on something that's specifically for women developers, right? Well, so Rails Girls has been targeting women. Or would be women developers or developing developers, as we like to say. But it's always been open to, you know, men want to come. They just need to bring, we treat it as you have to have a woman with you and she's your admit one card. But we're doing a Rails Bridge workshop, which is kind of cool. I don't know if a Rails Girls group has ever done a Rails Bridge workshop. But what's cool with Rails Bridge is they really target, just kind of underrepresented people in tech in general. So while it's mostly women, we're really happy to have any other sort of smaller minority group join us as well. Sure. It's kind of fun to see how having other people in the same room that they actually recognize each other and say, oh, look, you're like me. And I don't often see that at tech events. It's cool to see how that can build confidence and confidence to ask questions. So that's what we're working on. Sure. Well, and so I ask you that because I am perhaps in the largest majority or one of the largest majorities of programming in terms of demographics. And so, you know, as a young white male who is also a programmer, I want to see the same diversity that you want to see. And I would love to know what I can, like what I, and when I say I, I mean all men of my like same demographic. what is the best way for us to kind of support these efforts and encourage, you know, STEM and all of these things in, not just in women, but also in other, like, types of, or demographics, rather, that aren't our own? Well, so there's kind of multiple stages, I guess, that you can do. So always, if possible, whatever company you work for, if you can talk them into sponsoring, you know, maybe a local meetup of, you know, women's meetup. There's one, I think, based in California called Coding While Black. Oh, nice. I've heard of this, actually. Yeah. There's a great article on model view culture from the founder, and it makes me laugh. It's a little bittersweet what he's doing. Sure. But it's a great one. So if you... If you work for a company that has a budget to really support, or maybe not even monetarily, if you offer space for them to meet, offer, you know, mentors for their groups, like, that's great. Whatever you can do to invest in your own local developer community, you just receive back just in spades. And another thing that I'm seeing more and more value in, the more I see it done, is, I guess, amplifying the voices of people who might not be in the majority. Mm-hmm. And allowing other people to know that these people exist. Mm-hmm. Because I just use a meetup as an example, but let's say, let's just say just for gender diversity, you're a woman and you go to a meetup. Well, you might not meet a lot of women there. Mm-hmm. So you're already maybe a little bit uncomfortable asking someone to your left, hey, I don't understand what that means, because there's just not that familiarity that you might have. Of, oh, we've had probably some shared experiences. Sure. So versus a man going to a meetup who knows nothing, he's already seen people who have made it. Right. There's a big difference in going in and seeing someone who's already where you want to be. Mm-hmm. And if you see someone like you that has done it, that's very exciting. Sure. Because you're like, oh, well, someone else has done it. Mm-hmm. So by making people that are in, you know, minority groups more visible and heard more often, more people. Mm-hmm. And people who are just getting into it, they can find that sort of, that beacon of like, oh, yes, that person, they've done it, so I can do it, too. Sure. Yeah. So it's kind of a amplify voices. Sometimes just listen. Mm-hmm. And instead of inserting yourself into a conversation, maybe you can just let it happen around you. Mm-hmm. And just read it and glean from that. I'm bad about that, too, though, because I just want to jump in, because I want, I feel like I should be educated. But sometimes you have to do the legwork yourself to educate. Mm-hmm. And let other people just have the conversation that they were going to have anyway. Right. Which I think is particularly, that's a useful way of approaching this for me, because I know that quite often these conversations turn into flame wars. Right. They can. And my intent is not to say that I understand the issue. Right. Mm-hmm. My intent is just to support the people who are trying to fight the issue. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes your intent isn't always accomplished. Right. By what you do, right? So it may be better for me to just be quiet about it, right? And that's hard when you want to help, because not doing anything doesn't feel like helping. Right. But sometimes it's the best thing you can do, but it's the hardest thing to do. Yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to learn that one myself. Sure, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's great information for me, and I'm sure for a lot of the people who are listening. So I like to ask all my guests a question about what you would, if you were to meet a new developer or an experienced developer, either one, and try to give them some kind of advice in about 30 seconds. Okay. What would that advice be? That advice would be ask questions. More quickly than maybe you think you should. Is this to the experienced developer or to the junior developer? Both. Both? Actually, yeah. Oh, man. How do I come up with one for both? And you can split it up. Okay. It's okay. This is not a strict format, so. That's a good one. Let's see. What would I recommend? I would just say just, it might sound like a fortune cookie type thing. But remember that there's a person writing the code that you're reading. So that person might be you or that person might be a coworker. And remember that people are, just remember the person instead of just the code that you're fighting. I guess that would be my advice. Yeah, that's good. And what Ernie is doing is very similar, too. He's talking about basically human, humane. Humane, yes. Humane developers. Humane coding. Humane development. Humane development, yeah. So he was talking about that concept as well. Remembering the human comes first. That's great. And he actually, what you first started to mention, he mentioned as well. He said basically be quick to ask questions. Never be afraid to ask a question. It leaves you, you feel vulnerable when you ask a question. I remember I actually would save up a question to try and get the wording just right because I wanted to. I wanted to make sure that my question didn't make me sound stupid. But you just waste time and maybe you just are looking at the slightly, it might just be a very small thing that's holding you up. So yeah, quicker questions. Don't worry what the question is going to expose because most of us have been there. That's great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Pamela, for being on the show. And do you have anything, any site or anything that you want? And for visitors to find you on Twitter, right? They can find me on Twitter. I'm kind of, I've like, I've squatted like all of the accounts with this one username because I thought it was so clever. And I'll put it in the show notes so you can't really like pronounce it perfectly. I'm on Gmail and GitHub with the same one. But it's one that I, it looks great written. And then I'm like, I don't know, do I say Ponella? Do I say Ponella? I don't know. But yeah, I'm not even a gamer. So I don't know. I don't really. Perfect. Well, we'll put it in the show notes. And I'm going to start asking all of the listeners to just barrage Pamela and other guests with tweets and follows and thank yous for the work that they're doing and for being on the show. Thanks again. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining me today for my interview with Pamela. I really appreciated her time and I appreciate your time as well. One of the most important parts of the success of this show is the iTunes ratings and review system. If you would like to help the show out and if you've been enjoying the show, if you look in the show notes, there's a link to iTunes that will let you leave a review for the show. That is a huge help. And the reason it's a huge help is because it helps other developers find the show. And that's because they trust your word. They trust other developers. It's an incredible part of this. Industry is that we help each other out. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And until next time, enjoy your tea.