Hey, everyone, and welcome to Developer Tea. My name is Jonathan Cottrell, and in today's episode, I interview David Hemphill. David is a founder, a designer, and a developer. He has been working at Rebel Ventures. He built a product called PushSilver, and he wrote Beard.css. We will talk about all of these things in our interview. Thank you to today's sponsor, Hired.com. If you're a designer or developer and you're looking for a job, Hired may be the perfect place for you to start. We'll talk more about what Hired has to offer to you as Developer Tea listeners. But first, let's jump straight into the interview with David Hemphill. Welcome to the show, David. Hello. So I'm excited to talk to you. You are a PHP developer, correct? I am that. You are also a full-stack developer. You are on full-stack radio recently. So I assume anyone who is on full-stack radio has something to do with the full-stack. Yeah, definitely. So you do front-end, back-end. Tell me about some of your recent projects. I know you worked on Musicbed, for example. And I actually don't know what this one is, but it's called Bumble. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience at those companies? Yeah, Musicbed is a music licensing company. And so they sell sync licenses so that you can put tracks on your video. So you don't have to use kind of janky, robotic music that people have copied off other people. But this is actual artists that tour and that sort of thing. So you can use their tracks and put it on your video, which elevates the quality of your video so much. And yeah, you mentioned Bumble, which is actually just a side project. But right now... I'm working on two other things. One's called Rebel Ventures. I have two partners there. We're working on a donation platform. And then Monarchy is kind of my... It's my company, just me. And I'm working on PushSilver and a few other things that I haven't announced yet. Very cool. We're going to talk about PushSilver more in depth later on, as well as Rebel. My wife and I, actually, we got our music for our wedding on... On Musicbed. Some of the music we used, we got it from Musicbed. Specifically, the music we used for the videos. We didn't have to pay licensing fee. We don't have that many important people coming to our wedding. They're important to us. But no, we didn't have to pay licensing fees for any of the music we used for our personal event. Just a little bit of music copyright for anybody who's interested in knowing that. But we did have to pay for the license to put it onto a DVD. That was sold to us. So that was what we used Musicbed for. The people who did our video, they actually did a full video of our ceremony and everything else. And the music they used, they basically told us, you have to have a license to use this, even if it's for your personal DVD, which I didn't know. Yeah, it's not common knowledge. I'm glad they knew it because I want to give the artists their due. Obviously. For sure. It's very hard to make it as an independent artist. Most of these people are working at Starbucks and other jobs just so they can make music. And just licensing in general gives artists another avenue to make money. So they keep doing that. Sure, yeah. And so Bumble is a CMS, a side project, you said. I know that you've tweeted quite a bit. By the way, your Twitter stream is very much so entertaining. For anybody who wants to follow David, it's just David Hemphill, I believe, which will be in the show notes at spec.fm. But David's Twitter feed is, as I tweeted just a few minutes ago, it is equally informative and entertaining. So go and follow David. So I saw a couple of things on your Twitter feed as I went through. First of all, I saw that you ate a wrap recently. But perhaps more importantly, you just launched Dad's, Dad's in Development, a brand new podcast. That was today, right? Or yesterday? Yesterday, Monday. Yesterday, yeah. Tell me a little bit about Dad's in Development. Well, Dad's in Development is a podcast about dads and geeky stuff. It's with one of my co-workers, or I guess former co-workers from Musicbed, Andrew DelPrentice. He's a JavaScript developer, and I'm kind of more of a back-end developer these days. And so we decided just to kind of go for it. And started a podcast. We've been talking about it in the chat room that we're in. But yeah, we just decided one night to do it. And so it's really kind of focused on the developer that is also a dad. And kind of works at night. How to balance being a dad, a good dad, being a developer, and staying healthy, and those kinds of topics. This is going to be really interesting to me in the coming years. I'm not yet a dad. But I plan on it. So my guess is, I will need to learn quite a bit between now and then. Well, this will be a good podcast for that. You can kind of understand some of the struggles that we go through. I can only imagine. I mean, development just on your own, being a developer, you have to have a lot of quiet time. There's, you know, a lot of people are introverts and also developers. And there's not, it's not an accident, right? Like developers being introverts is a pretty common theme because introversion is kind of a necessary part of understanding software. Because you need a lot of time to think deeply about a given problem, right? Right. There's, you know, there's the concept of like, something I was reading the other day about managers time. I'm going to butcher this, but managers kind of way their days work and then developers or engineers or creatives. And the manager is always like focused on 30 minute increments. You know, what's my next meeting? You know, hopping from thing to thing and the creative or the maker, whatever. The terminology they used is really more about like, they might have two to three just stints, long stints of things that they can do. And how the, this article is talking about how the managers getting in every hour or just any small interruption actually breaks that flow, you know, degrades productivity or whatever. Yeah. I mean, as a developer, the best thing I can do is block off a three hour block. I can't tell you how much I get done when I can have just a three hour block of uninterrupted time. Interrupted me and my computer, as long as I don't end up falling onto Twitter or, or Reddit. If I can stay in Vim, which by the way, we will talk more about them in just a minute. But if I can stay, you know, in my development environment, I get a lot done. If I'm uninterrupted for three hours, then if I were to, for example, spend a six hour block being interrupted every 30 minutes, right? I get way more done in a solid three hour block than if I were to have an interrupted six hour block. Some of my most productive nights are after everybody's gone to bed and then they're asleep and I can just crank out so much work, you know, then it's kind of becomes a balance of, should I go to bed or kind of ride this wave until it kind of fizzles out? I usually wind up riding the wave, unfortunately. Well, I think everybody has different, you know, energy swings and that kind of thing. I find that I have different like things that I can, do at different times of the day. For example, I'm much better at doing work for this podcast. Luckily at night, uh, after my, after my day job has, you know, it's a long gone in the past at this point, right? Like my, my nine to five, which, you know, I want to put everything I can into that job, uh, and then come home and be able to put as much as I can into, into this job. Having those energy swings, I've actually been able to take advantage of that. But unfortunately, you know, some people, they're really super creative at night and they can't take advantage of it as much as they would like to until they recognize it. A lot of people will say that you should get up early and that's when you're most creative and that's when the best energy can be spent on the day. So they'll, they'll suggest don't look at your phone, don't do anything, you know, just get up. And if you're a blogger blog or start writing code, actually for me, I'm, I don't know if my internal clock is just haywire or I'm living in the wrong time, time zone or what it is, but it's something about, I can get good work done during the day, but at some time, it's just something about that nighttime burning the midnight oil. I don't know if I've maybe over glamorized it in my head, but something about that, man, it just makes me super productive. I'm actually kind of conflicted about this myself because, uh, I did go a short while where I was waking up at like 5am and I don't do that anymore for the record, but I was very, very productive in the mornings. And in fact, I felt great being able to do something, you know, for myself or for a side project or, you know, that kind of the feeling of having all of the energy of the day balled up for, for myself early in the morning. Uh, that was a good feeling, but I also have the desire to sleep in the morning. So, so that kind of competes with it. But I have found that there are certain things that, you know, will re-energize me in the evenings. If I go to the gym, for example, in between work and, and coming home, it's kind of like a reset for my brain. Um, I know like scientifically that if you make a certain number of decisions early in the day, then you experience like decision fatigue, right? So it's harder to make decisions later in the day. So it's a little bit easier to do creative work than it would be to do, I don't know, more, more analytical work later in the day. And I found that that's definitely true for me. I'm much better at doing things that are kind of, you know, free flowing. Um, so, you know, writing is, is typically free flowing for me and even talking on this podcast. Uh, I'm much better that at that at night than I am at the morning, but I'm much better at writing code in the morning than I am at night, which is a really interesting kind of dichotomy there. Yeah, I can, I can understand that. I think I see some of that in my own life where, you know, like during the day I'm programming mostly, mostly programming. Um, but at night it's kind of a mixture of programming, designing, in the browser, you know, writing emails off to customers, you know, making sure the database is backed up, you know, all these sorts of things where it's kind of free flowing and just, I can really get in a, to a groove, just kind of when I have full control at night, it just seems to be optimized for that. When you have a project that you're fully in control of, I feel like I can get more done at night than during the day. For sure. Yeah. And, and I think that there's a special kind of energy that comes along with something that you own. And David, you've, you've had a chance to own a few projects for yourself. The first one that I want to talk to you about is push silver. We're going to talk about beard. CSS later. We'll talk about push silver right after this quick sponsor break. Today's episode is sponsored by hired on hired software engineers and designers can get five or more interview requests in a given week. And each of these offers has salary and equity upfront. And of course there are full-time and part-time contract opportunities. Uh, you can use this, uh, this platform entirely for free and you view the interview requests and accept or reject them before you ever talk to a company. So really there's nothing to lose. Uh, on top of that hired works with over 3000 companies, uh, ranging in size from startups to large publicly traded companies. And they have employers from 13 major tech hubs in North America and Europe. Uh, once again, it's totally free for you. And if you get a job through hired, they normally give a $1,000 thank you bonus, but if you use a special link in the show notes, which you can find at spec. Dot. FM, that link will give you a $2,000 bonus. When you accept a job, that's a doubled bonus just for using the special link. Now that link is hired.com slash developer T. But again, that will be in the show notes at spec. Dot. FM. Thank you again to hire.com for sponsoring today's episode of developer T. So David, go ahead and tell the listeners what push silver is as well as why you decided to build push. Silver. Yeah. Push silver is, I call it ultra simple invoicing for busy humans. And it's a invoicing software as a service designed to be really simple, kind of aimed at the developer, the nighttime midnight oil burning guy or gal. What prompted you to build push silver? It was a mixture of a few things. One, I'm just insanely curious and, uh, I'm always trying to think of things that I can build that will push my skills forward. And so this was an opportunity to learn a lot of things. There was this JavaScript framework called view. And then Laravel, of course, is a PHP framework that I'm, I work in, but I hadn't had an opportunity to work on a multi-tenant application, which is, if you don't know, is a, you know, an application where you have all sorts of users using the same database and their data is separated. And so I really wanted to work on something like that. Um, but what prompted me to, to, uh, go forward with building it was that the market I saw was sort of saturated with really big, big, uh, software products like harvest, you know, and these are all great solutions to problems, but it was kind of a mixture of all of those being really complex. And my desire to kind of scratch my own itch, those kind of converge to make push silver. And initially it wasn't a, an invoicing solution. It was sort of like, uh, square cash or the PayPal thing that they have that they're copying off square with. And that helped. I used that for a little while, but then I found out that I really wanted an invoicing solution. So I kind of pivoted the software towards that. The thing that's so cool to me about, uh, push silver and, and applications that are built by, you know, one man teams is that it's a one man team, right? Like it's such a cool situation that we are in. It's a great age to be a, a software developer because we are now in the age where you can use an application that was built by one person. And then you, you can in the next moment use an application that was built by a hundred people. And then in the next moment you can use an application that was built by, you know, ultimately a company that has a thousand employees all in the same workflow. Like they, they can all talk to each other and, uh, not only can they talk to each other, but, but they can all be equally useful because the value of these things is that they are distributable, right? Like we can send these things out over the web, push silver and many other applications like push silver, uh, not necessarily specifically invoicing, but I mean, anything really is deployable on the web and instantly available all over the world. And this is such an, a unique situation from the rest of history, right? Like we, we haven't had the, the opportunity to see the impact of worldwide distribution at the fingertips of any developer who decides to take advantage of that. Yeah, that's really, really, really nice. We live in an unprecedented age where distribution is cheaper and worldwide, you know, and I don't think we'll see something that great as far as the ability for one person to, to impact people across the world. And it won't get bigger than that until we, mankind moves out to other, other planets and then we'll have to build software solutions for multi-planet, uh, markets. And maybe a few years off. Uh, I, I certainly don't mean to, to suggest that this is free though, right? Like this does take both time and at least a little bit of money, right? And that, that's probably something that will be solved in the somewhat near future. I believe at some point, that this is going to become open to everyone, similar to pen and paper. I guess technically you still have to buy a pen and a paper, but there are plenty of pens laying on the, on the ground. So it's likely that you can write, uh, write for free, right? Uh, it will be likely that you will be able to write software for free in the coming ages in the near future. Definitely. And our society is sort of recognizing the value of people that can write software, uh, I think the president just a few weeks ago or, or maybe it was a week ago, signed something about making it. He, I think he increased the budget for, uh, computer science, uh, education. Yeah. Yeah. Throughout the country. And I think that's the right way to go because many of these systems, they need programmers. We have old legacy computer systems that single people have the entirety of the worldwide knowledge of that one computer. Uh, really, you know, of this old computer system in their head and they get paid crazy amounts, you know, defense systems for the, for the government, you know, and I think, you know, the more things that are on the internet, the more devices, the more the internet gets out to, uh, the farther parts of the world, you know, the, maybe the poor parts, you know, we're just going to need more software engineers. We already kind of see it now that companies are in need of designers and, you know, I think we'll still see the same thing. And that's, that's great that our government's kind of recognizing, that we need to have that at an early age, that kids can start writing software because, you know, they're actually way better tuned to learning this stuff than adults are. It's like learning, you know, Spanish, a child can learn Spanish much easier than an adult can even, even now I've been in this, you know, 10 or 15 years, you know, and the, the people that have already come under on this first wave of web development and software writing, they're just miles ahead. Already. You can see a 13 or 14 year old. They're just smoking the greatest, you know, they're smoking the, the 30 year olds, the 40 year olds. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's, and there's science to back that up for sure. Like the plasticity of the mind is, is greater when you're younger because you haven't developed preconceived notions yet. Like that's, that's not a thing. So when you're super young, you're willing to accept new and completely different perspectives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you are to have a plastic mind. Not like a fake mind, but have plasticity. And so the interesting thing is they are doing a lot of research around that plasticity and how to increase it when you're older. But those are things that I actually don't, I don't know anything about yet. I'm still doing the research, so I'm not going to talk about it like I know about it. Well, if they can make a product that helps me learn things and absorb things quicker, I'm signing up for that monthly. I think this like step one in all seriousness is to approach everything as if anything is possible, which sounds super floaty, right? Like it sounds kind of ethereal and idealistic maybe, but that is actually the way a child approaches it because they don't have a concept of possible and impossible yet. They don't, they haven't formed that yet. I understand. That makes sense. You know, you see a lot of, like in your career, where you might outgrow a company and that might be a contributor to that is maybe that you're excited about newer technologies and you know, you might work in an agency and they're used to this old stack. I could definitely see that being the trait of the younger people because they just don't know that you can't do that or it just doesn't work that way. It's always been done this way. And so, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that for example, young developers coming in, they may not have any concept of a world without multi-threading, right? Like they may be already thinking that computers are parallel by nature because they have been since they were born, right? Like, so coming into this and thinking, okay, well, I have to learn about race conditions. Well, maybe I already kind of intrinsically understand that concept because when I first started programming, that was already a concept. That was already a concept. That was already a concept. That was already a thing, right? Whereas when I first started programming, me, race conditions were important, right? Like we only had one thread and if you introduce another thread, well, now you have to actually do something about that. And multi-threaded programming is definitely a part of our future and I think it's going to be a ubiquitous part of their world. So I don't think they're going to have as much of a problem translating from a single-threaded reality to a multi-threaded reality. Definitely interesting problems to solve. So I'm going to switch gears entirely and talk about Vim. If you're not aware of what Vim is, it is this very much so painful thing to learn. But once you learn it, it is an incredible tool. And David, I know that you, at least you started to learn Vim over the holidays. Can you tell me kind of how that went and where you are in that process? Yeah, I can tell you about the three or four other times I've tried Vim and failed. I've, you know, as a developer, you'll eventually encounter Vim if you're working with servers or anything like that. You'll need to learn a few basic things to even just get around Vim because it's installed on every server by default. But the first three times I tried to actually learn Vim, it was an utter nightmare. You know, because Vim has all of these, I don't know how to explain it, but the shortcuts and the, the commands inside the, inside Vim are just kind of, how would you describe it? They definitely are not natural. Yeah, you expect to always be in like an insert mode. And in Vim, they have different modes. You know, most of your editors are what Vim would call its insert mode where the text, the cursor is blinking and you can move around with the arrow keys. And the first few times I learned, I was working on Vim, I didn't know, my arrow keys were disabled. It didn't work. And so I didn't even know how to get around. And I did the classic thing that people joke about. I couldn't figure out how to quit Vim. So I just had to quit the terminal, you know, and it would leave a swap file. And I'd be like, what is a swap file? You know, all these sorts of things. The SWP file, for those of you who have been wondering what all those SWP files are in your server, that's what they are. The people that can't quit Vim. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I decided, I decided to quit Vim. I decided to quit Vim. I decided to quit Vim. I decided, with a few more years of experience, that maybe I could try it again. I'd been watching some videos where people were just writing insane code. Just putting a string of like 10 characters together and changing their code incredibly quickly. And so I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to understand it a little more again. So I launched it and looked over a lot, a lot of VimRCs, which is Vim's configuration files. And started to get used to the HJKL for my arrows kind of workflow. And just starting to really think about what I was doing when I was using Vim instead of trying to make it fit my previous paradigm or something like Sublime Text or Atom. I'll admit it was really painful and lots of rage quitting happened. Sure. But I got a good cheat sheet and just decided to persevere and learn the basics of Vim. And I was starting to get faster and faster. And I really started to see the value in it. And what really, I guess, kind of broke it wide open is when I started writing my own cheat sheet down. And I had also worked on getting my VimRC to where I liked it. Because Vim is very configurable. You can make it do pretty much anything. But it has to be configured. Because it's not configured out of the box to be usable by anyone, I think. Depending on which installation, it gives you a white screen with black text. And no color formatting or anything like that. Or just black text. Or black background with white text. And that can be really hard to approach. But yeah, I've been using it for the last, I guess, yeah, last few months. So you've stuck with it, in other words. I have stuck with it. There was times when earlier on, maybe first couple weeks of January where I'd have to jump over to Atom just to do something really quick, you know. Because I was starting to feel like kind of a claustrophobic inside Vim. I don't know if that makes sense. But if you don't know how to get around in Vim, and you don't have the right plugins, and you don't have it set up the correct way, you can really feel claustrophobic. Like when you want to go browse a file, you might not know how to get there without messing up your current buffer. And so that will make you feel kind of claustrophobic. And so I would jump over to Sublime Text or Atom. I was kind of using both at the same time. And I would do what I needed to do. But then there came a point where it was too painful to use Sublime Text because I couldn't do HJKL and I couldn't string together some of these movements. But Vim was still a little painful. And there was a lot of things that I wanted from Sublime Text and Atom that I couldn't do in Vim. So I just wrote those things down and found solutions to those and then just made Vim work for me. So now I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it. I don't think there's really too much that I can't do. inside Vim. And I've noticed that my speed of editing has gone up. I can now kind of think about what I want to do and then string together some characters and it happens. That's really interesting because I have totally switched over to Vim except for a few very small instances where I still think Sublime actually works better. One of those is multi-cursor. So being able to something that I commonly do for example is having a long list of records or something that I need to pull out certain values from and comma separate those values or something. And so I'll throw all of those into Sublime and I can do multi-line cursor super fast and get the values that I need out of those lines, put them into another file, do another multi-line cursor, add the commas, and then delete the new lines and there it is. Doing all of that in Vim is not easy. Right? Like you could probably find a way to do those things but I think the plasticity of the text in Sublime is different than in Vim. I've learned to use Vim for my authoring. In my opinion that's what Vim is best at is when you're authoring a new file whether that is if you're doing backend programming, if you're in Ruby or PHP or something or if you're doing even HTML. Vim is actually pretty good at that. Sublime is also pretty good at HTML and Atom is pretty good at HTML but Vim allows you to do things that none of those allow. For example, one of my favorites, delete inside tag. I can delete everything inside of an HTML tag by doing D-I-T. And that's it. That's all I have to do. It's incredible. And so I actually realized the speed of my development had increased when a developer, it wasn't me, I didn't realize it myself because it gradually increased for me. A developer walked up to me and he watched me change some code around and was like, wow, you are way faster than me. And I was like, wait a second, was I faster than you when I was in Sublime? Probably not. I watched you code. We don't code very differently. Maybe this is actually increasing my efficiency. It certainly changes the way you think about code though. For me at least, the way I think about code now is more kind of like data. The code on the page isn't just a text file, it's kind of like data that I can move around and change and process in ways similar to data from a database. Yeah, it's kind of like in programming there's this concept of abstract syntax trees. And it's kind of like once you learn Vim and you learn how to jump around and get to where you want to go on the file, it's almost like you're kind of like parsing this whole file and you understand almost in a moment's notice how you can get anywhere on the page. Versus in your traditional editing flow, you might hit the up arrow a hundred times to go up a hundred lines. With Vim, you can if you wanted to get to the 56th line and you're inside the file for the first time, you just go 56, shift G and you're down there. Or you can run a quick search and jump to the spot that you see. But you can do that kind of thing in Sublime. But something about the Vim keeping you on the home row of your keyboard really increases the speed. And like the delete inside tag, those kinds of things are super valuable. Because how many times have you went to the end of an attribute in HTML and then had to hold, what is it, command shift and then arrowed over until you found the first quote. That's what I do because I'm left-handed and I think that's why. Or the reverse where you're going from left to right. In Vim, you're just going C, I, and quote or C, I, and parentheses or D, I, parentheses if you just want to delete it. And it's so much quicker and allows you to think more about the problem instead of the code that you're writing or the editor. Once you finally get those committed to memory, that is. Yeah, and I think the difficulty for a lot of people is at first, it's quite literally the opposite. Before they try Vim, they aren't thinking about their text editor at all. And then somebody says, oh, you can think about only the code when you're in Vim. And they're like, oh, I want to see what that feels like. And they try Vim and they realize, I'm only thinking about my text editor. It's definitely that way for a while. It's just a repetitive thing. Anything that is worth doing probably takes practice. And Vim is no exception to that. And there's lots of good modes that can help you get better in Vim, but leave you in the same, or leave you in the editor that you're in. So like Atom and Sublime have Vim modes. And Sublime is vintage. And Atom has Vim Plus and that sort of thing. And those help. But there's something about just learning Vim by itself that makes, I don't know, there's nothing like just Vim, just straight up Vim. Those other modes are good. You get the immediate benefit of being able to jump on pretty much any Linux server and at least know how to open a file and edit it directly on the server. Which, for a lot of people listening to this, that's probably a fringe scenario, right? You're probably not doing that very often. But especially for the sysadmins, I would assume most of the sysadmins already know at least a little bit of them because this is like fundamental necessary knowledge. Unless you're using Nano, and if you are, let me know. Because this is going to change your life. It's so much more palatable than a regular text editor in Terminal. If you've used Nano to edit your host file, for example, that's probably the most common scenario of people using Nano. I certainly recommend that you at least try them. I don't have any experience personally with Emacs, and I've heard that it has at least similar gains in performance in terms of how fast you can get something done. I've also heard that Emacs is a little bit larger in scope. It's kind of its own operating system. Either way, try one of these kind of deeper editors. And perhaps, again, I don't work with an IDE, but maybe an IDE is that deeper editor for you. I don't know. Vim has been incredible for me, and it allows me to customize my editor experience so much more than Sublime ever could. Yeah, I remember a few things that I would need to edit on the server. A lot of times I would open up Transmit and SSH through there, and then try to open it, and I'd right-click it, open in Sublime Text, and oh, such you know, that was painful. I didn't realize it was painful at the time. I was just trying to get the editing done, but being able to just SSH into the server from my terminal, and just open the file. Just Vim whatever it is, and just get going. It's good. And I know a lot of server admins that run just stock Vim, because they're on so many different servers, and it's not practical to sync over their settings on each one of them. And so they just run stock Vim, and I'm like, more power to you. Yeah, good for them. The closer you can get to stock, it's probably the better you are at Vim. The better you are, I think, in the anywhere scenario, where you have to be able to use Vim as it is, on some random brand new server, for example. Yeah, definitely. So we agree on Vim. Now it's time to talk about Atomic CSS. You know, I talked about this, actually, with Cap Watkins. He was on the show a couple months back. And he was building Atomic CSS for BuzzFeed. He's still working on this project, I think. And a lot of his design team is working with Atomic CSS as well. And back then, I kind of just sort of blanket agreed with him, because I hadn't really deeply looked into it. And the points he made were certainly valid. And I think, David, that you're going to have plenty of valid points about this particular subject. But I want to open the subject because I recently had a discussion about Atomic CSS. And I think we're going to have some good discourse here, because there's a lot of things that I do like about it for certain scenarios. But for other scenarios, it just doesn't add up for me. So, David, I'm going to jump right into our conversation about Atomic CSS in the next episode of Developer Tea. If you don't want to miss out on that, make sure you subscribe in whatever podcasting app you tend to use. That will allow you to be alerted whenever that episode is released. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Developer Tea. And thank you to David for coming on the show. If you want to see all the links and the notes from today's episode, you can find those at AtomicCSS.com. And you can find us on Spec.fm. There are other shows on Spec.fm that you need to check out as well. And so you're probably already going there. Spec.fm, that's where the show notes are for this episode. And you can listen to every episode of Developer Tea at Spec.fm right in your web browser. Thanks again to Hired for sponsoring today's episode. 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