So you're probably not a salesperson if you're listening to this show, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn something from what it means to sell. Really, that's what we're talking about in today's episode. Really, sales is not just about getting somebody to buy something, but rather it's about influence. I'm very excited to have today's guest, David Hoffeld. He wrote the book, The Science of Selling, and we discuss all of these very interesting topics around the science of selling, and more specifically, how they can apply to developers, people who are not necessarily tasked with selling to clients in the marketplace, but rather really just getting to the core of this information. Once again, my name is Jonathan Cottrell. You're listening to Developer Tea. My goal on this show is to help you become a better developer. Sometimes that means becoming a better salesman. Sometimes it means diving into research, diving into psychology, tons of different topics that you can bring as kind of cross topics for your particular area of expertise. You can learn from these topics and employ those learnings in what you do every day. So I'm going to get out of the way and we're going to get straight into the interview with David Hoffeld. Welcome to the show. David. It's great to be with you today. I'm really excited to talk to you. You know, I'm very blessed to have fantastic guests on this show. And it is a show for developers, but we talk about all kinds of topics because really software development is making its way into pretty much every single space in the business world, including selling. And really part of the reason I want to talk to you is because I'm very interested in business. I'm very interested in behavioral science. And as a, you know, in an executive kind of role, I've been able to, you know, talk about behavioral science for developers, talk about behavioral science as it relates to pitching. I'm completely hooked on this. The thing that sold me on your book, by the way, was within the first couple of pages, you mentioned Thinking Fast and Slow, which has got to be my all time favorite book on the discussion of behavioral science specifically. Kind of. The godfather book of all this. But can you kind of give just the general overview of what your books, The Science of Selling, is about? The Science of Selling really looks at, well, decades of research in a number of different disciplines, like you mentioned, from behavioral economics to social neuroscience, social psychology, cognitive psychology. And it looks at how is our brain wired to be influenced? Meaning, why do we accept some ideas? And not others? And how can we present ourselves and our ideas in ways that guide people in taking them seriously and then acting on them? And what the research shows is absolutely fascinating in that the way an idea is presented shapes how it will be perceived and whether or not it will be acted on. And in my research, I was able to find many examples of great ideas or great products or companies that were just presented. And I think that's what I'm most proud of. And they're not accepted. And it's not because the idea or the company or the product wasn't good. It was the way it's presented. And the exciting news is that because of this wealth of research that we now have access to, it can allow all of us to improve our ability to present ourselves and our ideas in ways that are aligned with how our brain will perceive them. And so whether you consider yourself a salesperson or not or good at selling. Whether you consider yourself a salesperson or not, it doesn't matter. Because armed with the scientific research, anyone can become more influential. And so it's very, very exciting. That is very exciting. And this is part of the reason why I was so excited about reading about behavioral economics. But then it was kind of difficult to distill that stuff into actionable advice for myself. And that's what this book does. I want to be very clear with listeners that David is not sponsoring. This show in any way. I just found the book to be really compelling, really interesting kind of dive. And there's quite a bit of information that is distilling from all different places of research about these principles of behavioral economics and of the research that has been done about the way people make choices. So I want to talk to you really kind of rewind. We're going to go back before you wrote the book. I'd love for you to start out by telling us a story. About a moment before you engaged in this research. A moment of failure in sales that you ended up learning from in the long run. But a moment where you saw this very clearly later on. You know, hindsight is 20-20. You saw very clearly what that failure was. Do you have a story like that that you can tell? Unfortunately, I have many. I was always good at selling in that when I started my first sales job, I was always a top performer. And I worked my way up and worked in a number of different fields. And at one point I sold to about 70% of the Fortune 500 companies. So I was very successful. But I can remember many times where I would lose the sale and I didn't know why. For example, early on in my career, all sales people need to try to create urgency and really help guide their customers in understanding why it's in the customer's best interest to act now versus waiting. Especially when it's a long time. Especially when it's a long time. Especially when it's a long time. Especially when it's a long time. Especially when it's a long time. Especially when it's a long time. And you have a solution that can really help people in meaningful ways and serve their businesses. And I can recall somewhat early on in my career pushing people, pressuring them. And I was trying to convey how important this solution would impact them and how it would help them and how they'd be better off for it. But oftentimes because I was pushing them, they would, well, they'd push back. And they'd say, well, I don't like to be pressured. And I'm like, I'm doing it out of a pure heart. I'm doing it out of a pure heart. But I didn't know, well, how do you, how do you present your ideas without feeling, causing people to feel that they're being pressured? And it was years later as I began to read academic journals that I came across a scientific principle that described exactly what was happening. And it also described exactly how to neutralize those feelings of pressure so you can present yourself and your ideas and create a compelling argument. And it also described exactly how to neutralize those feelings of pressure so you can present yourself and your ideas and create a compelling argument. For adopting your solution without causing people to feel that you are pressuring them. And when I read that, I remember thinking, if only, if only I would have had that years ago. How many more people could I have helped? How many more people rejected what I was selling or what I was saying? Because I was so, you know, I wanted it so much for them that they felt that I was pushing them. And if I could have just leveraged this side. That I didn't know existed at the time. But if I could have leveraged that, how many more people could I have helped? And so many examples like that. I found that as I got deeper into the research, as I began to study it, I became addicted to it. Because I saw, even though I was a top performer, I now knew why I was a top performer. It wasn't, I wasn't, I knew that things worked when I sold, but I never knew why they worked or how you could adapt to the unique person you're talking to. When I learned the science, it gave me. Clues behind why people were making decisions. Why they were creating a preference one way or another. Why they decided to make a buying decision or adopt my ideas. And because I knew why, I was now able to better serve them and adapt my message. Not only that, I was able to find out the things I was doing wrong. And there was a couple. That was just one of them. There was numerous things I found that I was like, it wasn't in spite of that, I was still successful. But if I would have known about the science. And known how to align my behaviors with how our brains make choices. I could have been even more successful and help more people. And so that's what I find anytime I teach top performers in sales. Or even top business leaders or people that are good at communicating. They go, now I understand why I'm effective. But I also see there's always a few things all of us can improve on. And the science tells you that you don't have to guess your way to success. You can leverage this powerful wealth of data. And it aligns you with how our brains create. Perception. Yeah. Perceptions and make choices. Yeah. And let's talk about that a little bit deeper. Because there's a couple of things here that I want to kind of zoom in on. One of them is this idea that. And probably a lot of people who are listening to this podcast feel this way. That sales has this bad rep. Right. It has this bad sense that if you're a salesman that you have to be slimy in order to accomplish your job. And that's simply not true. And what we're talking about here. One of the things that. That makes you feel slimy is this idea that you need to pressure someone. Right. And because you feel like they're going to slip through your fingers. They're going to figure you out. It's kind of the unstated. The unstated reality is that. That pressure in the back of their minds. That somehow they're going to figure out that they're being tricked. Or that you're trying to take their money. Or that you're overpricing something. Or whatever it is. And the truth about sales is that it's not slimy. If you're doing it right. It doesn't have to be that. There are certainly people who are not executing. That well. And unfortunately sometimes they do end up succeeding. And following down that path. Because they're creating basically. A series of lies that are convincing people. And that's not really where we want to be. Because that's not sustainable. Right. Eventually we get caught. Eventually people know who this slimy sales guy is. And that's not what this is about. So I'd love to talk a little bit further about. First of all. This research that you're referencing. This isn't research. That was done necessarily. Purely about sales. Right. This is research that was done about. Kind of core human behavior. Core. The way that people make decisions. This isn't only about the way people make buying decisions. But it's also information. About how people make just everyday decisions. How they make economic decisions. Between one thing or another. Can you talk about. Kind of the sources of the research. That you used. In some of these epiphanies that you had. In writing the book. Yeah. That's an excellent point. And you're exactly right. This research. Is not sales specific. In fact. Oftentimes. Some of the studies. Did focus on. You know. Getting people to make an economic decision. Regarding a product or service. But most of them do not. So these are done by research scientists. Trying to uncover. Why we do what we do. And why don't we do certain things. And what are those. Certain behaviors that nudge us. In one direction or another. So. Science reveals reality. And it gives us. At very least. A better understanding. Of how we make choices. And some things. Some biases that we might have. That we need to focus on. But it also allows us to understand. Other people. And how we create preferences. And so it certainly is not sales specific. It just reveals. Really it's focused on our brains. How our brains are wired. To make any kind of choice. So and it's amazing. The science has been applied. To so many different disciplines. For example education. Education is one of the fields right now. That's leveraging it. Probably more than almost any other. Looking at how do we foster learner motivation. How do we teach students. In the way that our brains are wired to learn. How do we increase cognition. And retention rates. And they leverage this science. That we're talking about. In fact even our country. In the United States. As well as 136 other countries. Are leveraging behavioral science. The United States have a behavioral science unit. So. As the UK. Where they look at. How do we present policies. That we all agree with. For example. Saving from retirement. Or keeping kids from dropping out of school. How do we present these ideas. So that people embrace them. We all agree we should save from retirement. We all agree kids shouldn't drop out of high school. But people do. People still do these things. So how do we present them. How do we nudge people. To do those things that are best for them. And for the society. And leveraging this science. Can make a dramatic impact. Because what the research shows. Is that sometimes very small changes. Can produce very big results. And one fascinating thing about this. Is all of us underestimate it. In fact behavioral scientists. Actually have a term for this. In fact they have a couple. They use to describe it. The fact that when we read. About behavioral science. And we go boy people are. People are gullible aren't they. Yeah I can see all the people being fooled by this. But not me. And we all have that bias. We vastly underestimate this. But the reality is. Even myself. When I am being presented an idea. And I can recognize the scientific principles. That are at work. I'm still persuaded by it. Why? Because it's how my brain is wired. It just feels good. And when you have had great experiences. With for example a salesperson. And you go boy. He or she was excellent. I mean I bought from them. I enjoyed the process. I felt like they listened. They understood my needs. They presented. The solution. So I saw value. And boy it was just an easy decision. It was a wonderful experience. And we refer our friends. What makes that salesperson better. Than the one you described a few minutes ago. Where they're the opposite. It's really how they're presenting. Are they presenting in ways. That are in line with how our brains make choices. Meaning are they helping us. Through the buying process. Or what happens often times is. They get in the way of it. Yeah yeah. And I want to talk about exactly that. You mentioned. We can get really. Practical here. You mentioned the idea. That we're kind of wired. Or we think intuitively. That we need to rush somebody. Because we really do believe in our solution. We believe that now is the time. For you to buy this. So we need to pressure you. In order to buy it quickly. But that's actually not the case. So can you share kind of an antidote. For that perspective. What is the right way. To present something that does create urgency. But it doesn't make somebody. Feel like you know. You're basically watching over their shoulder. Trying to get them to do something. They don't want to do. Yes there's a couple answers to that question. Real quickly. So the first thing is we need to number one. Understand the people that we're trying to influence. So it's very hard to influence someone. If you don't know where they're starting. Starting places. So what do they care about for example. What are they trying to get. What kind of outcomes are they trying to get. Meaning whenever anytime I present. Or I teach a client to present their company. Your product or service. What I always pop the bubble that they have. And I let them know that no one cares. About their company product or service. No one cares at all. No one is innately curious about your company. Or what you do. No one cares. But what they care about is the specific outcomes. That they want to achieve. So the more you can align your company. Or your product or service. With what they care about. The more interested now they become. And so we need to understand that as our starting place. So what does this person want to achieve. And now how can I help them. How can I help them perceive high levels of value. And that's really a key to value creation. How does our brain perceive value. When you link up a new idea. With an outcome that I want. Meaning if I want to lose weight. I want to lose 10 pounds let's say. And you can show me a way to do that. That will guide me on that path. Well now that idea has a lot of value to me. Right because you've linked it with something I care about. And often times we present ideas. Without focusing on the other person. So we call it. Very seller style. Centric or presenter centric. Presentation. So it's all about me. Let me tell you about my company. My product. My service. My ideas. No one cares. We need to say. Understand them. And now present to show them how they can achieve their outcomes. Make it always about the person you're talking to. And you'll always have a willing audience. Make it about yourself. And people want to disconnect very quickly. So that's just one of the many things we can do. Is always focus on. We say the buyer. Or the person you're trying to. Influence. How can I meet their needs. And that's how value is created. And that's how really how you can guide people. And wanting now. They see enough value. They want to act. And there's many other additional things we can do. To create urgency. And reduce those feelings of pressure. But the foundation is. How do we get them to see value. So we don't have to push. If I can present enough value. Right. I don't have to push you anymore. Why? Because you want it. Right. You go. That's what I want. You recognize it. Rather than me having to try. To force it down your throat. Because that just doesn't work. People push back. Well let me ask you this. Because. Because. That totally makes sense to me. Some of the things that I like. Seeing. Or. Or. As a buyer. That I've seen. That have been really effective to me. Is when somebody. Tells me about a system. That they have in place. That creates urgency. Without them being the ones that did it. Right. So in other words. For example. We have a limited number of tickets. We have. A. Limited number. For. This is true for this show. We have a limited number of spots. That you can sponsor. Right. So. The earlier that you choose to sponsor. The more likely you are to get a spot. Number one. And number two. The more likely you are to. Be able to choose a date. That you want. That sponsorship. To show up on. Right. Very simple principle. And it's something that I don't have to. I'm not adding. A manufactured pressure. It's a system that. That really I don't have. Much control over. And I'm letting you know. And it's something that you can then. Evaluate for yourself. Does that work in this. In this framework. Or is that a bad thing. No. Yeah. What you're describing. Is one of. We call them heuristics. Which is a term from behavioral economics. Which is. It's very simple. Our rule. Our brains. Have. Mental shortcuts. We all do. Intuitively. It's kind of almost. Wired into us. And these rules. Are how we make rapid decisions. Our brain. Uses it. To be able to discern. If we should do something. Or not. If something is. A good decision. Or a very high risk decision. And these heuristics. These. Rules of thumb. Mental shortcuts. Are very powerful. And the great news is. Scientists have. Cataloged them. And one of them. You just described. Which is. The heuristic of. Scarcity. Which says. That when something. Is in scarce supply. It's perceived as higher levels of value. So I actually want it more. And so there's been a number of studies. Many great studies. On this. That have shown. How powerful. Of. A principle. That is. When something is in scarce supply. We want it more. And there's so many examples. From. Rare paintings. To. Rare toys. Around Christmas time. Where parents will. You know. Scavenge through stores. Trying to find that one toy. That is. Most stores are sold out of. For their kids. That's really popular. For the year. So many examples. How scarcity. Increases value. So that's simply. Leveraging. Or allowing. To be made known. A principle. That is true. It's authentic. It's not unethical. Because it's. It's. It's real. In this situation. But it also. Helps our brain. Perceive. Higher levels of value. And it naturally. Creates urgency. And that's. That's a great thing. About this science. Is allows us to naturally. Influence. We don't have to conjure up. Anything. Or do anything. Unethical. We can just allow. How the brain is wired. And we just. When it's appropriate. Present in those ways. And people naturally. See value. And we can just. They naturally. Create urgency. In their mind. And so. We don't have to. Resort to any kind of. High pressure. Sales tactics. Because it's just not. Needed. Or warranted. Because now. We're leveraging science. Yeah. This is so good. Because. What we're doing is. We're relying on something. That is totally ethical. Even if you were to. Peel back all the layers. Even if you were to. Look at my private notebooks. And all of my sales strategies. I'm not afraid of that. I'm not afraid of somebody. Asking me. Hey. How do you. How do you. How do you present this? How do you sell this? Because I can tell you. Very honestly. That I'm not trying to trick anybody. Right. I'm not trying to. To. Explode the value. Of something beyond. What it really is. I'm not trying to lie to you. I'm not. And this is. This is what. You know. Developers. Generally speaking. We're. I would say. The average developer. Tries to think very logically. About things. And they try to uncover. A lot of the. The facade. The layers of. You know. Of makeup. Really. And this is a very common trait. That developers have. We try to remove. All of the fluff. And try to get to the core point. And this is why. A lot of developers. Reject the concept. Of selling. On its face. Because for so many years. Once again. It's been presented. As this. You know. Very. Manipulative. Thing. And it's really not manipulative. In this sense. The good. And sustainable sales. Are not manipulative. So. I actually want to talk. Talk to you a little bit. About. More about. How this can apply. To developers. We've got. A couple of different. Audiences of developers. Who listen to this show. And I. Want to speak. To their. Their situations. Directly with you. And ask you a few questions. Around their situations. The first. Question. That I want to discuss. You know. In software development. One of the things. We find. Over and over and over. Is that the predictability. Of project completion. Is incredibly difficult. To nail down. In. Daniel Kahneman's book. He talks about. A. The book. That he wrote. With a couple of colleagues. That took him. About four. Or five times. As long as they had predicted. It would take. So. In other words. The amount of time. And resources necessary. To complete a project. It's incredibly difficult. If not. Impossible. To predict. And basically. Across the board. People overestimate. Their capacity. To complete work. And they underestimate. The variability. And the unpredictable. Factors. These are things. That are usually difficult. Or impossible. To control. Like. For example. Somebody getting. Sick. Or. You know. Another company. That you didn't even know. Was going to enter the market. Entering. Right when you're about to launch. Something like that. Right? So. From your perspective. And with your knowledge. Of this research. I'd love to know. How would you recommend. Approaching. Selling something. When you have. That high of a level. Of uncertainty. About. For example. The budget. Or the timeline. Without being. You know. But without lying. Or otherwise. Promising something. That you really shouldn't be. Promising. Promising. Something that. Is very unlikely. To happen. Yeah. Absolutely. So. Yeah. That's a. That's an interesting question. Because you're dealing with. A lot of things there. The first part. Of your. Of your statement. Deals with something called. The overconfidence effect. Which is fascinating. That we vastly. Overestimate. So many things. My favorite example. Of this. Is when you ask. People to rate themselves. For example. Even highly educated people. Like college professors. One survey found. That 96%. Of the college professors. That were surveyed. Rated themselves. As above average. So 96%. So that's an example. And just one. Of many examples. That. Of the overconfidence effect. And there's some things. You can do. To make sure. That doesn't happen to you. Because that can often. Hinder your ability. To make good decisions. If you estimate. Things will take. Three months. But in reality. It's going to take a year. And you don't know that. So you get to that. Three months. A six month. And nine month mark. That can. That can mess a lot of things up. So there's some. Science back strategies. To use there. But when it comes to. To answer your question. When it comes to. Sales. When you don't know. How long something will take. In the sales scenario. Number one is. We want to gather. A lot of information. So in a sales world. Oftentimes. When we misrepresent. Things unintentionally. It's because of. Ignorance to some things. That we should not be. Ignorant to. And so. What we want to do is. Begin by focusing. On their client. So if I'm going to deploy. A solution. Which is you described. In your question. That I don't know. Exactly how long. It will take. There's so many variables. Let's say. Then I want to talk. To my client. And I want to ask them. About their product. Or service parameters. Their time frames. Their financing. Their budget. And that way. I can understand. If there's any. So if they say to me. We have to have this. In three months. This solution. Must be done. In three months. We have a drop dead date. It has to happen. Then I can. With that. With that. Buying parameter. Now I can say. Okay. What can I do? What. What kind of. Solution do I need to create. Or can I even create one. That'll hit that three month mark. And two things will happen. I might say. You know what. There's impossible. With our solution. It's going to take nine months. There's no way around that. You try to pull strings. Make things happen. Nothing can happen. So then you would disqualify. That person. I wouldn't try to sell them something. That's not a good fit for them. Or us. I don't want to spend my time. Selling someone. Something that will be. Terribly unhappy with. So then I would. I would pull back. And just let them know. Honestly. And often that preserves. The relationship. And can open it up. For later on. We were saying. I respect that honesty. Second though. Is if I know that time frame. Now I can say. Okay. Our regular solution. Takes nine months. But. Let me put together. Some options. To be able to do that. Three month mark. And maybe we get you. What you need. In that three month time frame. You know. I find out. What are the bare minimums. They need. And then we look at. That staggering this project. So now I get creative. But I do that. Based on the information. I have from my clients. So when there's uncertainty. I need to create. Some level of certainty. Regarding some very. Specific things. Yeah. Yeah. That's really fantastic. And this is. So. The. The common answer. That we provide. At the company. That I. That I work for. Whiteboard. We've. Shifted a lot of our services model. To. To a more. What is called agile. And you can call it. Whatever you want to. But basically. We're going to promise you. That we're going to work on. The most valuable thing. First. And this is. This is our new brand promise. Right. We don't promise. That we're going to meet. Some specific. Arbitrary deadline. Especially. If it's arbitrary. Instead. We're going to tell you. That we're. We're going to put. Every effort. Into the most important. Things first. So that. When that deadline. Does arrive. The most important. Stuff is done. Right. So. So typically. You know. In software development. What. What you find is. Most of the time. A. Finished. A quote. Finished project. Has. A series of features. Rather than. Just one big feature. Right. In other words. Yes. It's a lot of things. That are composed. Together. To create the product. Rather than. You know. One large. Kind of. Single thing. And the reality. Is that you can probably. Focus on about. Half of those features. To begin with. Or even. A third. Or a tenth. Of those features. What are the core. Things. The most important things. And really. What this does. What we've found. That it does. Especially. With clients. That do buy into. This approach. And are willing. To accept. The reality. Of the uncertainty. What it allows us. To do. Is sell them on. The ROI. Right. They're actually. Going to get. The best return. For their money. If they follow. This approach. Because. What we don't want to do. Is lie to them. And tell them. That we have certainty. When we don't. Right. And being honest. With the client. Wins their trust. This is such an important. Part of what we do. Oh. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that is. And this. This comes up a lot. Is what is really. The difference. Between influence. Persuasion. And manipulation. And. There's a number of core things. That we talk about. One of them. Is withholding truth. And so. Anytime you're not. Telling someone. Something. You're not being transparent. You're withholding something. That you know. Would matter to them. That you know. Would influence their decision. And yet. I hold it back. Because it's. You know. I want to get this deal. Or I want them to adopt my idea. That's. Pure and simple. That's. Unethical. And so. That's one of the key differences. Between. Persuasion. And manipulation. Is manipulation. Usually. Is withholding truth. It's not giving people. All the information. They need. It's being very selective. And so. I think. Especially in our society. Transparency. In all areas. Is very much. Esteemed. And valued. People respect it. And so. When you're very transparent. Up front. It also creates. High levels of trust. And so. To be up front. And guide people. And understanding. What you can. And what you can't do. And you know. There's all kind of ways. There's really. In some interesting. Science-backed strategies. That you can use. To do this. But it's. It's powerful. And people. We're much more likely. To trust someone. That is transparent. With us. Than someone. Who's presenting things. In ways. That sounds too good. To be true. Like really. And we say that. Nothing's that perfect. And we know. When someone. Presents in ways. That sound too good. To be true. We know. That. There's something. They're not telling us. That creates distrust. It. Increases the perception. Of risk. We associate. With the decision. And oftentimes. All of us. Can experience this. Where we'll say. I don't have a reason. But I just don't want to do this. And I don't know why. I just don't feel right about it. And oftentimes. That's because. Of a variety of things. But oftentimes. People oversell. They. They. They. They. Present only the good. And they're so. Non-transparent. That it seems gimmicky. And it's not that. Their product or service. Isn't great. Or their idea. Wouldn't be. Valuable. It's the way. They're presenting it. Is breeding. Distrust. Is doing the exact. Opposite of what they intended. And oftentimes. It can cause us. To lose out on some great things. That we reject. Just because of how. It was presented. Right. Yeah. I mean. Recognizing that your product. Isn't the solution. To every single problem. Right. And. Realizing that. Hey. You know what. Not everything. That you are going through. At your business. I'm not going to be able. To solve every one. Of your problems. With my solution. That would be. Insanity. Right. And it is. If it seems too good. To be true. This is. You know. Your grandparents wisdom. If it seems too good. To be true. Probably is. That's. That is so ingrained. In the way that people think. That. That we need to identify that. And not try to oversell. So. So. This is really interesting stuff. I do want to. Shift gears. And talk about another question. Related to. The developer audience. Because we have a couple. Of different types. Of developers. Who listen to this show. And. Not specific to. The. The. The software necessarily. But. More in terms of their role. So we have freelance developers. Who kind of run their own business. They're. They're like. Business owners. Slash. Developers. Right. And then we have. People who are working for. Major tech companies. We have people who are working. In client services. That's what I do. We have people who. Are working in. In startup. Situations. But everyone can learn. From these principles. Right. Because. Not. This. This stuff isn't just about. Convincing somebody. To exchange money. For. For something that you do. So. First. For freelancers. I would love to talk to you. A bit about. How a freelancer can use science. To help them obtain leads. And. And close more contracts. But specifically. You discuss neutralizing competition. In your book. And as a freelancer. I'm competing with. Really the rest of the world. Freelancers. Is a very large pool. Of people. That are competing for. For this. For. For. For developer. Freelancer. Positions. So. Even if there is. Plenty of work. To go around. Which there is right now. How can I convince. My potential client. That I'm the right choice. For them. Very important question. And there's. Many answers for that. Let's go with the foundational one. How do you. Get attention. How do you get someone. To even look at you. To put enough trust in you. To. To want to. Begin to talk to you. And then make that decision. One of the. One of the foundational principles. That we teach. Is a powerful. Rule. That our brains follow. We call it. Reciprocity. And reciprocity. Basically says. We should repay others. For what they have done. And we. We utilize this. In my business. And we have many clients. That do this. Extremely successfully. And it's the idea. That you give first. Ask second. Too often. When we're trying. To present ourselves. Or our services. We. We try to get people. To give us their time. So we'll contact people. And say things like. You know. We have some great options. I. I love. To share with you. What I do. If you have a few minutes. If I can share those with you. Ask you some questions. See if we could possibly help you. And so we ask first. We ask for time. And people say no. I'm busy. I'm not interested. I'll let you know. What we need to always do. Is focus on giving. In fact. We have a rule at my firm. We never. If we send out. For example. A proposal. I sent out a proposal. For a large piece of business. A week ago. And we had scheduled a meeting. It wasn't able to happen. So I sent out an email. Just to follow up. And we have a rule. We never just send out an email. Or make calls. Saying hey. Checking in. Wanting to see if you let a chance. And look at that proposal. Instead. We always first. Give something of value. At every. Single. Client. Interaction. White paper. Article. Blog post. Idea. Some insight. We might have created it. We might not have. We're. We're scouring the marketplace. For things that are applicable. To our clients. Within our context. Of course. Increasing their sales. So I would recommend. That anytime. You want to position yourself. As a trusted advisor. And that's what you want to do. You want to. If not. Create content. You want to curate content. Meaning. You want to know. What else is out there. And be able to give people things. So anytime you. Before you ask. Give something. Now when you do that. You give something. Someone something of value. That's relevant. To them. In their context. Let's say. It's just an article. Or a blog post. That someone you know. Created. Who's not a competitor. And they go. This is actually really helpful. Thank you. And now. They are far more. Likely. To want to talk to you. They're far more likely. To reciprocate. And give you their time. The problem is. And that is a. Buyer centric approach. Where we're focusing. On the buyer first. And we're leveraging. A very simple. Scientific principle. And that's been proven. A ridiculous amount of time. In so many studies. Reciprocity. One study. For example. In. Focused on sales. Done by a behavioral scientist. Named Dennis Reagan. Probably one of the most famous. Studies in this area. Because he found. That even giving people something. A very small gift. Before you ask them. To make a purchase. Doubled sales results. So we. We vastly. Underestimate this. People say. Well that sounds too simple. That seems really. It is simple. It is easy to do. Do not underestimate it. So before you ask. Give. And you'll find. People are far more likely. Than to comply. With your request. Not only that. But as you give people. Things of value. You become. Valuable. Right. Every time. This person emails me. He gives me something. I can use. This is awesome. Email me. Sure. Right. You're creating. What we call. A social norm. Or a standard of behavior. Meaning. When you and I talk. I get something of value. So. When you call me. Oh hey. You know. I'm excited. Instead of. Most sales people. They get. Or when I'm trying to sell. My services. They're like. Oh no. No. I don't want to take that call. Right. So. Always be a value creator. If you do this. Even if they don't do business. With you right now. You're. You're. You're memorable. Why? Because you're not focused. On you. You're focused. On. Them. And most of your competitors. Who are they focused on? Them. I want to sell you my services. Don't do that. Start with. I want to give value. To you. So that I become. Such a value creator. That. Six months later. When you say. Boy. I need something. Who's going to pop in your mind? The guy. Cold calling you. Blasting you. With emails. Or the person. That's giving you value. At every interaction. We all know the answer. So be. A. Someone that gives value. Relentlessly. Like I said. That's a principle. At my firm. If you send an email. Or make a call. And you don't have something. Of value to give. That's a problem. It can never be about us. It always must be. About the client. And that's what will get you. A lot of wins. And create a deep level. Of loyalty. And referrals. Thanks so much. For listening to today's episode. Of Developer T. The first part of my interview. With David Hoffeld. Make sure you go. And check out his book. Science of Selling. Don't forget to subscribe. If you don't want to miss out. On the second part. Of the interview. With David Hoffeld. You can subscribe. And whatever podcasting app. You use. It takes usually. Just a button click. Thank you so much. For listening to today's episode. And until next time. Enjoy your tea.