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Part Two: Interview with Christopher Schmitt (@teleject)

Published 12/21/2015

In today's episode, I finish the interview with Christopher Schmitt, author of the CSS Cookbook and part owner of Environments for Humans. Click here to listen to part one of the interview.

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Transcript (Generated by OpenAI Whisper)
Hey everyone and welcome to Developer Tea. My name is Jonathan Cutrell and in today's episode I continue my interview with Christopher Schmitt. If you don't know who Christopher is, I suggest you go back and listen to the first part of the interview with Christopher. I will include a link to that in the show notes, which you can find at spec.fm. We don't have a sponsor for today, but Chris asked for me to share with you a call for speakers. It is the JavaScript Summit 2016. It's a remote conference. Chris is the head or one of two heads of environments for humans and they are putting on the JavaScript Summit. Go and check it out. It will be in the show notes and you can submit your talk to speak at the JavaScript Summit of 2016. Now let's jump straight into the interview with Christopher Schmitt. Chris, welcome back to the show. I am so ready to get started talking with you, but first I want to recap with you what we talked about on the last episode. What did we talk about on the last episode, Chris? We talked about my history starting out with web design. We talked about writing books, web design, a little bit, and conferences for web design. We talked about specifically, we ended up talking about the stories from CSS DevConf. I was actually at CSS DevConf and I spoke about level four selectors there. It was such a great conference to be a part of. What you asked me what a great story I have from DevConf. What's a great story that you had? I first of all, I very much enjoyed the conference overall. I thought it was a very well put on conference. The octopus was incredible. I can't say that's my favorite story because I mean, I guess I could, but I don't know that that's a valid favorite. I really did appreciate the same things you appreciated specifically, the double-blind yielding, the audience that it yielded. That was telling of the industry and also of that process. For clarification, I don't have the numbers in front of me. Chris, maybe you have some of these numbers available, but it was a pretty decent split in terms of diversity. There were people from all walks and all types of industrial jobs. People who are building products, people who are an agency world, people who use CSS solely for art. The discussion on fractals, for example. That was a great one. Honestly, one of the most memorable parts of the conference for me. My wife and I, we slept on the boat and the walls were as thin as a piece of paper. I am not kidding you. We heard everything that the people next door. In fact, one morning, somebody had a TV on and I guess they sleep with their TV on regularly, which you know, that's fine. But the problem was that they had on, it was like a TV evangelist. They were just yelling through the TV the whole time. In my wife and I are laying in bed, like trying to sleep at four o'clock in the morning, the people next door, obviously, they don't know that we're awake and waiting for them to turn things down or anything. Yeah, well, that's because the Queen Mary was a, because everyone just know it was a steam liner and it was like the biggest one when it was built on the fastest one too. And it had massive massive massive engines. And you know, almost if people were just staying still, they would just be going on. And because it would make this noise, I kind of repart and repart through the whole ship. And so that you couldn't hear, like if the engine was still on, you wouldn't be able to hear what your neighbor was doing. But because the engines were, they actually removed, because it's technically the Queen Mary is no longer a ship. It's technically a hotel, because it's permanently docked, is that all the walls you just hear. And I didn't think it was going to be that much an issue, but we kind of caught it, you know, during the conference was that yes, you could go to the front desk and ask for your plugs. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry if you think you did a message out, but yeah, that's kind of, to see if you had an issue with the puttank. Yeah. And to clarify, I wouldn't have changed the venue for anything. It was a fantastic venue. Well worth the thin wall incidents. Quite honestly, like I said, it actually created a really good memory for us. But in terms of, I guess, more serious memories or something, I really actually very much enjoyed the show and tell. And Chris Quayer put this on and it was upstairs on the top deck and it was like in a space that's normally a restaurant, but he stood at, I guess he probably sat most of the time at the front of the room and anybody in the community could come up and show something they had done. And typically, you know, people are showing code pins, which just happened to be a pretty good segue for Chris anyway. But no, I mean, people were coming up and showing random tools. Some people had even created little demos, like constructed demos that had a timeline that were intended specifically for the show and tell. And it was really cool because these are people, once again, saying like, hey, you know, I didn't get selected as a speaker, but I'm going to, I'm going to step in front of people and, you know, show off the stuff that I'm doing. But I thought earlier was that, you know, the knowledge base of the audience is bigger than just one person on stage. And so we really wanted to tap into and say, like, let's share what we know as an audience could get up there and talk. And so, yeah, it was really awesome. I was able to do that and step in. And so that was, that's a new recall we put into DevComp this year. Because during that time, we have what's the best of. And so what happens is that, so there's a voting to get into as a speaker to DevComp. And then there's voting during the conference itself, where we actually vote on the session. And so with Chippewa one, you know, there's like, they end up top six gets voted on best of. And those six get repeated. So in case you missed it, or you're a different session or whatnot, because you always have that multi-track conference, right? Or you always say, like, oh, I was searching that session, because it sounded really cool. You get that fear of missing out, you know, the FOMO thing. I'm gonna miss out on that thing. And so this is a great way of coming back and seeing that. But for those people who may have actually seen those positions, you know, we worked with Chris Quarer and say, like, what would be great? And he actually does those code show and tell us with co-pand at meetups. And so just a really great way. So if you actually do a meetup or if you want to meet up in your town, I think just having a show and tell, you know, a monthly or weekly show and tell us great. And so, you know, I was, I feel like, if you're missing out, I feel like I missed out. For those, for those parts. I feel like I heard great things about it. And Chris Quarer, I actually has right up on the code pen and talk them in a blog post of there. But yeah, I heard nothing about great things about it. He and Dave actually talked about, they did a CSS devconf like wrap up episode on ShopTalk. And I believe he mentioned quite a few things that happened during the during the show and tell. But yeah, it was, it was, and that was a very enjoyable part of the conference for sure. But I think it's hard for me to point to a specific moment that I, you know, I would say that stands out really just being at a conference with those people, you know, I'd met Chris and I met Dave and those are people that feel very distant from me, right? If when I'm sending at home here in Tennessee and, you know, I don't really encounter a lot of those kinds of people in my day to day life, they're writing blog posts or they're, you know, publishing podcasts that are shaping the way that I do my work in a lot of ways, right? Or they're helping shape the way a lot of people think about the stuff that we use every day. And to, to actually be in a room with them and hear what they have to say and them actually listen to what I have to say, that's, that's a unique experience. I would definitely recommend going to a conference if you can't tell. But I do, I do want to mention one thing, like I mean, I do like case anyone's wondering what the octopus thing was. Oh yeah. It was actually in 80-foot long balloon octopus. His massive massive. That we hung from a ceiling of this room, which is the room which happened to be Bob Hope actually presented or performed. We're on a ship and we thought like, hey, we're in a ship. We should have a yacht rock concert. So we got a yacht park band to come in and play. And so I think someone actually said that there was a surprise that we wasn't, you know, karaoke. They actually thought it was like, they were surprised we actually were real bands. Yeah. So before, before the 80-foot balloon octopus became even, you know, an idea, we asked the hotel staff, like, can we bring in fog machines or a bubble machine to go with the concert, right? And they were saying, no, because it's an historical building. We can't damage the wood because the greenery is a Art Deco museum that floats pretty much. Sure. Yeah. And it's like, there's a vintage Art Deco and actually have Art Deco conference every year. And so I was like, oh, if you can't, if I can do that, I'm gonna go get balloons. And so it building an LA, which is like Long Beach, California, I knew that someone specialized in balloons for a party's event. And so there's this, I think, a elite balloon design, you know, in the shout out. And I said, like, hey, I need nautical seam balloons. And like, well, we can do a not to push and have a hang. I was like, yes. That's exactly what we need. And so they actually came down when we're like, we're based in Austin, Texas. They took a trip to the greenery on their own, talked to the staff there, figured out a way to make it work. And so we actually had to hire a lift to actually go up and this is a lift and actually install it up there on top of the. Wow. Yeah. So we got done like one minute before we open. That's great. So you mentioned briefly the idea of having these, these meetups, you know, they Chris hosts his show and tell in a regular meetup, I think, I guess in Austin, but also they have them in other locations. They have these code pin meetups where people get around, they gather around a computer and they show off their code pins. And, you know, I'm wondering because you have so much experience with conferences and with community and organizing people, I'd love to know how that kind of goes in those early days. Because I know there are people who are listening to this episode right now and you're interested in creating a meetup in your town after hearing about this or maybe they're even interested in starting a conference, right? I'd love to know, you know, maybe a few tips for them about how to start that that community, how to grow it and maybe some of the biases that they need to be aware of and mentioned earlier, you know, I don't want to offend people, but there are biases that I know that I have, but I don't know what they are, right? So what are some things that they should keep in mind if they go about creating a community like this? Well, I mean, like you mentioned biases, but like, you know, if I was for a human started conversations I had with my partner, and I already, styles of that, she used to work for South by Southwest. And as part of her job, she would go out to other conferences and see what they were doing. And then as a speaker, you know, I go to other conferences including, you know, some buy and all stuff. And then I would see how the conferences were put on. And so I, you know, I had this bucket list item of like, I will actually put on a conference before I die type of thing. And so, and so we, and I met Ari and we sort of like came, we had a lot of ideas of what kind of the perfect conference would be. And so we just like, I'll just do it. And, and actually, no, I didn't just do it. I guess I could have done it, but I was actually a board member for AIGA Cincinnati. Okay. Yeah. AIGA is like, graphic design, professional network. And so back then, I'm not sure where they are right now, but they're just a great bunch of people. I love that board. And like, I never felt bad going to an AIGA board meeting at Cincinnati. And it's great, but people, and but it's really known for print because Proctor and Gamble, which owns so many companies that you, you know, they do a lot of print design, they do a lot of outsourcing for video and some of that. So web stuff back then, you know, for the iPhone really hit it stride. I was really for Flash. It wasn't really for standard to whatnot. And so I really wanted to talk to them about like, let's just do a web conference for designers because there's not much here. I took me a year, because I looked for my email, like I think to me a year to convince them that, yeah, we should do that. And they gave me the green light to go ahead. And so that was, we put together what became known as AIGA troll. And it was a one track conference with keynotes. Today, one track you know, it's at the end of the day with the great speakers. And I just called in a lot of my colleagues and friends, you know, favors. And we're just trying to smooth things. We're also and we've, you know, the venue space is always kind of, is always tricky. Mm-hmm. For the trickyest part, you know, down the day. And, yeah, I'm not going to lie, there's a lot of work. Last week, a lot of logistical planning, a lot of rolling with the punches. I think running conferences, sort of like being a really good manager in the sense that I think the biggest, you know, lesson that I learned from when I went to grad school, I got project management certification, was that it really doesn't matter what happens for a manager. When I'm a project, is just that you have to take ownership and realize that this will happen. And we're going to actually make it work. If you don't have that mentality, then, you know, most projects are just going to fail. So if you had that mentality with your projects, then, you know, the success rates I go through the roof. And so we just surveyed like you do at the end of a conference and everyone loved it. It was the biggest fundraiser at the time for A.I.J. Cincinnati. What a success story. Yeah. And I saw Keynoted, my own thing, which is like, a little stressor mama, too, and top of that. And people watching you liked it, which is crazy good. Because I usually do more Cody Tech stuff. I really like, I'm really in that great inspirational. You know, so you ask me like, Christopher, what's the short version of the Internet story? Are you the long version? The short story would be, I find the big names in your community, like the big agencies or tech and just ask them if you could use your space in four hours to. That's a quick easy way to win space. Co-working is not more popular than it was, you know, five, seven years ago. You may be able to find space that you might be able to use as a meeting space. That's kind of cheap wins there. Outside of that, it gets kind of a pricey. You might be able to find a Austin is kind of notorious for bars. So we have a lot of bars. And so we have meetups off the six street, which is there's actually a bar with a second floor called the Buffalo Billiards, which they meet in the end. And I'm not really sure what I could speak for them, but you might be able to find a bar that's open as a space or a restaurant. And as a like, mayor room, we're gonna meet. And if they just donate the room for you for your time, as long as someone buys coffee and lunch, you know, where they're and that's what they care about. Yeah. So, you know, I was in the meetup when I lived in Ohio and I met Ben Kelleyan at, actually, I met Ben earlier, but I met one of the times I first met Ben Kelleyan from Sparkbox. It was in a Panera bread for a web meetup. And I was presenting on CSS positioning. So it doesn't really matter where, as long as people agree to come and talk about that. And we talked about Show and Tell, like Chris Quarad did at CSDIF Conf. And I would just do a show and tell and just make it like pot lock. They can't bring something that you're interested in, passionate about. And just do a quick show and tell about that. And one of the most stressful things in life, you know, like there's moving, there's, you know, getting a job or whatever. But, you know, one of the most stressful things is getting on stage and speaking in front of people. So, but staying like Show and Tell, like it's a really great way for people to realize that they don't have to plan to speak a lot for a long time, like a 45 minute or half hour. They just show you what they're working on. And that's it. And then answering a question. And so it's not like, you know, it should be a big time commitment. Yeah, they are having to prepare slides necessarily or whatever. They're just kind of coming up and saying, hey, this is what I've been doing. This is what I'm interested in. Yeah. And they'll be great. They have Q&A and learn so much back and forth. And I actually have a friend who is starting a conference. So this is partially a question that he was asking for me to kind of pitch up to you as well. But, but this is all really interesting stuff because there's, I mean, the theme of what you're saying is just come up with ideas for people to hang out and get value from it. Right? Like there's no rules to the game necessarily. It's just, you know, what are ways that you can lower this, lower the stress on people who are coming, especially the presenters. And an increase the value for people who are coming to listen to those people. Yeah. And then there's, you know, just like the show and tell model. And then, which I think is the probably like the easiest way just to meet people. But there's also like, you know, you can build around themes or subject matters like Nick and Sandy, a politic here in Austin, they do the WordPress meetups here. And when I first met them, they were doing like maybe two or three a month. And now they're like, they're doing like 16 million a month. No, but no, they're doing like a two a month now. But they actually listen to, they do a survey every year. They listen to what the survey says. And they have like, you know, a WordPress for beginners. They have a WordPress for, you know, for advanced people and WordPress for content. And you know, Austin's, you know, has like one to two million people in it. So it's, you know, so they actually move WordPress meetups. They have different locations that they worked out with different spots around Austin. So if you can't make one hopefully, you know, because it's too far away, hopefully they'll get closer to you, you know, and location is a big part of that. So they definitely keep an eye out for that. So there's a WordPress and there's like, you can do, if there's not a JavaScript one, I would, you know, probably start just ripping me up in your area. You know, that could be a little bit too broad. So, but you know, there's CSS, there's a SAS meetups out there. So you know, whatever is really what your passion is, you know, if you're into UX, and I just drop a UX meetup, whatever discipline, or specialty. Yeah, that's great. And we're going to take a quick sponsor break and then we'll come back and talk about some of what you've learned from the actual content in this year's conferences. I want to talk to you about maybe, you know, what you see is coming up in the future, what you think are emerging tools and that kind of stuff. But first, I want to take a break to ask the listeners to take a few minutes today and subscribe to Developer Tea, but also go and check out the other shows on spec.fm. Spec has a variety of awesome content with other providers, not just me, but other people design details, for example, it's a design related podcast. 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Now let's get back into the interview with Chris. So we've been talking about meetups and cultivating communities, creating situations that people can come and talk about the things that are interested in, whether that's user experience or some really specific technology. And Chris is kind of a expert on the subject. He runs environments for humans. And as a result of that, Chris, you've had an opportunity to not only be the organizer of these events, but you attend every single one. Naturally. So you have the opportunity to be exposed to a lot of the newest and latest, greatest things that are happening in this industry. And so I'd love to ask you a few questions about the industry, the direction it's going, and maybe what's happening. We're nearing the end of 2015. Maybe what you see is happening in 2016. So the first question is kind of the obvious one. What tools or technologies do you see as becoming more important or kind of the year of 2016, kind of focusing on these technologies? What do you see emerging as a result of being in these conference talks that you've been a part of? We put on a department for humans. We put on events that we would like to go to. Like we would like to go to, but we're usually so busy that we usually can't really grow up at school. Sure. But yeah, so that's in case an point in season of companies. Because I love season of conferences. And I wish I could someone, I wish I could just hold and just go to it one day and actually not work about it. Because it sounds like a fun conference. It is. I can tell you, I was there. Once I noticed like for sure, like SVG, I think we had like, we had kind of a mini SVG track. Yeah. Yeah. With in cities, stuff, because we had Sarah Sweden. There is keynote. And then we kind of like, you can't, we did it on purpose a little bit. We actually had the SVG tracks. Sessions all lined up after each other. I was wondering if you did it on purpose or not. Yeah. And I just feel like I think it's called green sock. Yeah. The G S A P I think I didn't know a green sock until I was here at that time. And so it helps for animations for a vector. SVG and so on. So I feel like that's SVG and that, you know, it's good to grade with that. In fact, we're actually doing an SVG summit on January 21st. Oh, great. Because it was just like so impactful. Like I'll hear it here is a true responsive image format. And it does so much more than just, you know, line icon. So we're actually going to probably do like an SVG accessibility. Deep dive with animations and just see how far the radicals goes with SVGs. So I was really impressed with that. It kind of blew my mind, you know, especially with typography and SVG. I'm going to be demonstrating there. Flexbox. I'm just I think flexbox is going to be, I'm not sure how many people are using flexbox right now. But I feel like it's it's going to probably be the facto reason, especially after you know, IE9 goes away and IE8 goes away. It's support for Microsoft. You know, I think that's this past week alone. Like there's a lot of people writing kind of nuanced articles about flexbox and the mystery, you know, of like, like, for turning up like, you know, using its child for stacking things with flexbox and so that gives you kind of a good. And JavaScript period, you know, if you don't know JavaScript, I, you know, I think, you know, this is about a cry five years ago. You know, then it's like just no JavaScript because I think, you know, SkyNet is written in JavaScript. I've been with WordPress. I think, you know, it's just like, I, you know, I should probably should learn JavaScript more than why do now five years ago. And I feel like by WordPress saying that, you know, they're making a huge shift and telling people to learn JavaScript deeply, I feel like that's just like, for me, I feel like that was like, you know, don't like that's a big bell. Just went off and like, just need to know more about that. And, but personally for me as some guy who is more front end person just grunts and gulp and just knowing those tools to help automate, you know, SVG app and export back, you know, fallbacks, being, uh, templating, just doing everything. So you don't make mistakes. Just on many everything. I think if you're a designer, front end person, if you don't know that, just either gulp or grunt, which are one makes me happy. Sure. I, I use gulp personally. Uh, yeah, I really enjoy gulp. Yeah. So whenever, first of all, I think you just need to have the automated and learn command line and be happy with it, which I don't think I'll be, but I think I'll get there. Yeah. You know, it's funny because the people who listen to this podcast, we have all different kinds of people from all different backgrounds. Uh, in fact, I got an email from someone who is actually a banker and they listen to this podcast. Um, my guess is, you know, there are plenty of developers who currently feel like they're behind, uh, listening to this, to this episode and, and you just heard somebody who's been in the industry for, uh, quite a long time, successfully, by the way, Chris is a successful person. He is not focused on, uh, on learning the command line, like right now, right? Like that's not his ultimate goal. He, in fact, he's been very successful having not known the command line. So, uh, and I'm not saying that to say that you shouldn't learn the command line. Certainly, uh, that's a tool that's probably useful to learn. But the point is that if you feel like you're behind, you're okay. That, that, I want that to be the overwhelming message on the show that falling behind is very often that is a fallacy. Yeah, I think that they're industry being so, uh, we talked about how fast it moves, you know, before. Yeah, it's just, there's just so much and that's like one of the reasons why we do our events is is so people can, you know, especially our remote conferences as well as that so people don't have to take time to fly out, you know, or like, or spend time with friends or family. And they can spend just one day or like, if it's multi-grain or multi-today or whatever, uh, with a remote conference, just focus on JavaScript or SVG and get caught up with industry. And so, and not feel like, oh, I'm so behind on that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, uh, so that, that kind of, uh, gives us an idea of tools in that landscape. The second part of that question is, you know, what, what do you think is going to change in terms of workplace culture and especially for the young developer as they come into the industry? What do you see the industry moving towards, uh, culturally and, and supporting culturally? I don't think I can answer that honestly per se, but, uh, in terms, because not because, like, nah, I'm like a wide view, but I just sort of like, I just want to say that I've been working for myself for almost 15 years now. So, so my culture is like, you know, uh, I get to where I want. You know, I did change the t-shirt. It's awesome. So, so I don't have a different thing, but, you know, from, you know, I've always said like, if you can be that for freelancer, um, I think the future is going to be a person who can brand themselves and, um, be their own boss. I feel like that's happening a lot more where they can actually connect interact and that's a sad story for everyone. That's not for everyone. Uh, it's, you know, it's, it's very tough sometimes be a freelancer often. Um, but also, yeah, I feel like if you, if you're not in a good or a positive work environment, I would, you know, and you know what you know, like, if you know JavaScript or you know, tools and your end of man, I would say like, you know, look around. Yeah. And find a spot that you like and, you know, and don't just like weave every like month or work like every year, just like, just stay there and, and if you enjoy it, you know, just realize that you work at a place that is positive and reinforces what you do and, you know, and, uh, and just enjoy it, you know, life is short. And if you find a job that you're at and you're happy, kudos, man, because like, there's so many people who don't have that. That is so true. That's incredibly true. Yeah. That actually answers one of the questions that I like to ask all developers, which is, you know, what advice would you give every developer if you just had 30 seconds? Um, I would assume that that answers that pretty decently. Uh, just the idea that, you know, enjoy what you have. And, uh, I think a lot of developers, they feel like just culturally, you know, this industry, there's a lot of turnover and, and people like to jump between opportunities because they exist probably, right? Rather than, well, do I really actually want to leave this place, right? Like, if you, if you are enjoying your job, remember there, there is some canonical wisdom in, understanding that the grass is always greener, right? You will always have opportunities, especially because I think we mentioned it on the last part of the, part of the interview, but the demand in this, in this industry is much higher than the supply currently. So you're going to have opportunities, uh, forever. But the opportunity that you have when you stay in one place, when you invest in the people that you are, that you are working with and you cultivate relationships that go a little bit further than, you know, one year or whatever, that is something that, that people in this industry, unfortunately, a lot of the time, they miss out on that. And so there's some value there. Now, obviously, everybody's different, right? But, uh, I'm that way. And I think, and you are that way, Chris, I think, I think some people are kind of pressured to move quickly and to move around a lot. And you don't have to do that back in, like, you know, last century, and before that, you know, people would stay their job for 20, 40 years, whatever, and get a gold watch. You know, that's not going to happen there, but, uh, any more, I just feel like, you know, you know, if you, you know, if you feel like it's time to move on, that's awesome. Like, listen to your heart and move on, but, you know, you don't have to jump around and, um, you'll, you know, find out. But if, if you're happy with your work, you know, just realize like, you know, you don't stay there because I say, I don't want to just like, you know, just, just realize like, hey, you're happy. And, you know, I mean, people can say that about the job, but if someone comes along with a better offer, hey, you know, always listen. Yeah. Yeah. I actually had somebody ask me about this recently. Uh, somebody mentioned, you know, I got this dream job offer and, uh, I feel like I need to be there for the people at my current job. And, and I said to them, you know, quite honestly, your, your first responsibility in my opinion is to be there for you because nobody else is going to, you know, nobody is going to care about you for as long as you care about you or as deeply as you care about you. And that's, that is a responsibility taking care of yourself is important. And it's not about being selfish. It's not about, it's not about any of those things. It's about understanding that it is in the ball is in your court, right? So don't let anybody push you around in either direction. Don't let us. Don't let me or Chris push you around for that matter. But, but certainly don't feel like you have to leave just because, you know, the opportunity presents itself to leave. Chris, I'm going to ask you one more question. Uh, and it's a question that I like to ask all the guests that come on Developer Tea, as long as I remember to ask them. And that question is, what do you wish more people would ask you about? That is a very good question. I wish I had a really good. I have no idea what they would ask me about. Like, would be, what kind, like, how do I make a great conference? I don't know. Uh, how would, uh, how it gets with tall. Uh, how am I right to make books? I would ask people, how can I help them be better at what they do? Yeah. Or help them be better, uh, for XYZ. I feel like my talent. One of the talents I love is being able to, uh, to take something that someone else has built and make it better. And say, like, here's a truck of criticism on how we can make this really a more interesting piece or, um, you know, presentation or whatnot. Um, so if someone can ask me like, Hey, Chris, what do you think of this? Yeah, that's great. Uh, I think that's, uh, I think that's a really valuable thing. You know, we, we always ask people this question because it strips away. It typically ends up stripping away some of the technical discussions and it gets to the underlying motivations that drive people. Some people will say that they wish, uh, they wish that people would ask them to tell more stories about their experiences. And that's surprising coming from a developer, uh, sometimes because if you hear that from a developer, that's, that's kind of, you know, a lot of people, I think, assume that developers have a perspective of the, of the world that it's more logically constructed or, you know, it doesn't have space for that, but that's not necessarily true. So it's always interesting, I think, to, to explore that question because, uh, it really get, uh, Lin some insight to, to who you are as a person. Chris, this has been a, uh, very interesting interview. If you are listening to this episode and, uh, you, you did not hear the first part, I highly encouraged that you go back and listen to that. But, uh, before you do that, go and subscribe to Chris's show non-breaking space. This is actually one of the podcasts that, uh, inspired me to start podcasting. It was one of the very first podcasts that I ever listened to about web development. So it was, it was very good show. You can find that I assume Chris the best place to find it is iTunes, but what are the places that people can find you? You find it, uh, it's at non-breakingspace.tv, Twitter is, uh, Teleject, T-E-L-E-J-E-C-T, and then I'm pretty much Teleject everywhere. So that's a Facebook or, or whatnot. So then, um, I think, uh, Christopher Schmitt.com is my much neglected website. And, and, uh, we will definitely include all those links in the show notes, uh, which people can find at spec.fm, along with all the other show notes, uh, from every other episode of Developer Tea. Chris, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure. And thank you for listening to Developer Tea. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you subscribe to the show and whatever podcasting app that you use, and rate the show in iTunes that helps other developers just like you find Developer Tea. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, enjoy your tea.