Hey everyone, and welcome to today's episode of Developer Tea. In today's episode, I finish up my interview with Laurence Bradford. Laurence is the creator of Learn to Code With Me, but she does so much more than coding. And I found this out after interviewing her, how broad of a discussion we had about careers. So I really hope you tune in, even if you aren't a developer. Share this with the other people who you think could value learning a little bit about code, but also who are just kind of trying to find their way in their careers. I think that is who these episodes are going to be best suited for. So please share those with the people that you think would find the most valuable. Thank you so much for listening to the show. Let's get straight into the interview with Laurence Bradford. We've talked about quite a bit about careers now. And I want to talk to those people who are just like you, Laurence, and have you give them some direction, maybe. The kind of new developer who's interested in, for example, writing. I know you do quite a bit of writing. You're a contributor to Forbes, and that's still relatively active. You're active on Forbes. Can you kind of, first of all, talk a little bit about the process that you've gone through to develop your skill as a writer? And, you know, how did you... Get the connection to Forbes and that kind of thing. And then also, you know, what is your... What is kind of your daily habitual routines for writing and uncovering insights that you may have that you feel like are worth sharing? Yes, definitely. So, okay. So for first, the skills as a writer. So that was definitely built up over time. Like learning anything or doing anything. When I go back to older blog posts that I write, especially on like, Learn to Code With Me because I'm like the Learn to Code With Me blog, or even some like guest posts I wrote on other sites in the past. I definitely cringe. But I think that's a good thing because it shows that you're progressing, right? Like when you look back at something you did even a few months ago, definitely a few years ago, right? And you're like, oh man. But actually, then that said, now when I look at writing that isn't too old, like even writing a year, year and a half ago, sometimes I look back and I go, wow, that was such a good article. Like, wow, I can't believe I wrote that. Like, you know, over a year ago. And it was so insightful. I almost wonder sometimes if I could even, if I could even express myself in that way today. But I guess, you know, I'm going through different experiences now. But in any case, it was definitely, it was definitely practice. And one of the things that really helped me, and not everyone has the time or is ready enough to do this. But before I got my full-time job, I was writing quite a lot. So I was writing on a bunch of different sites. And at this point, it was all pretty much, um, I was being paid. So I wasn't early on when I started to write on some other blogs, like it wasn't for compensation, but I've over time was able to start to make money through it. So I decided to hire like a copy editor. Cause I would spend so much time like writing the posts and editing them. And she was still in college at the time. Now she's not, but she would help me edit like different blog posts and she would give me feedback. And once I began kind of working with her and seeing like the changes she was making, and I'm really not that great at like grammar and stuff. I'm so much better now actually, but I'm just from working with her. Cause funny, fun fact, her and I still work together, but at my full-time job at teachable. So I have her now. That's cool. Yeah. She helps us. She's a contractor. She, but she works like 35 hours a week and she does a bunch of, um, copy stuff here, but in any case, um, so I was able to learn so much of the experience and not just through working with her. Cause there were other times where I'd work with other editors. Um, so I wrote a lot for skill crush and there was always a lot of back and forth, um, like suggestions on like the articles better. So getting that feedback is really important as well. I think, um, yeah, as, as a writer and really knowing how to, um, and not just, okay. So not just getting that feedback from someone, but really like listening to it and, um, you know, understanding it. That's really, really very true. Yes. Cause, cause yeah, cause there's been, um, maybe, maybe sometimes earlier on was a little more stubborn or something. I feel like I could have gotten feedback that I kind of brushed off a bit, but then, um, once I got, um, maybe it was partly part of maturity, um, and just becoming, and just really understanding like, Oh wow, wait a second. Like these people definitely know they're talking about, um, taking that feedback and really putting into use. And now whenever, so I still have people guest post for my site and I always give lots of feedback. I think some people maybe don't like it as much as others, but you know, just trying, just trying to help. And so, uh, then with the other thing with Forbes, so I, as I mentioned, I began slowly writing for like more and more sites. Um, and all the while like building connections in, um, the community. So both like the tech community, but then also kind of like tangential ones. So with other people that wrote on the sites I was writing for, for instance, uh, which weren't always totally tech related, uh, like for instance, skill crush has a lot of content on their blog about like freelancing and, uh, career stuff. So there are a few of our writers. So in any case, someone that I had met through writing and we had, you know, become, become friends, he ended up giving me an introduction to an editor at Forbes. Uh, when I, I just kind of messaged him one day and was told him I was looking for some more writing opportunities. And it was just that he knew that this Forbes editor was looking for new people. So it was kind of like a perfect, it kind of just worked out. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh, but that just also goes to show how important it is to like build like your, I feel like saying build connections and networking is so like salesy. I think, I think, I think of it as more as like friends and like your community and like the people you have around you. Um, and that ties back into my editor. Her name is Kate, by the way. Um, it ties back into Kate because even though she, you know, I was paying her and, you know, now she works with me at my full-time job and we're still paying her. It was still intentionally, um, surrounding myself with people that would, um, you know, kind of help me hone my craft in, in one way or another. Yeah. So, and then you also asked me about my routine. Okay. So my routine right now is pretty crazy. Um, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,! Uh, just because between the full-time job and everything else going on, I pretty much work whenever I can squeeze it in. And when I say work right now, I really mean on like Forbes stuff and, my podcast and anything else that's unrelated to my full-time job. So in the mornings, um, in the evenings, which is right now we're doing this interview at night. Um, and also on the weekends when I can, I try to take one full day off a week. It's usually Saturday. And generally I pretty much, I pretty much do nothing. Like I don't even leave the house like this, this past Saturday, I didn't even leave the house. I left the house once on Sunday. I just, I don't know. I was a little, I was especially drained for some reason this weekend, but I really need that time where I like, just like, don't do anything completely unwind. Yeah. I, I'm the same way. I, as I said, I've been doing some, some research into a millennial mindset and that kind of stuff. And part of that was just self research and doing a like personality test. And that kind of thing. And, um, as cheesy as, as it is, which I feel like the same thing with the sales language, uh, to say like personality test, it sounds very HR speaky. Um, but, but these things are actually, uh, kind of amazing if they nail your personality, right. They really get it right. And, um, they can be really insightful and, and they're not going to be a hundred percent right. But, um, you know, there, there has been a lot of, of studying the psychology. And one of the things that keeps on coming up is my introverted nature. And how it, how it, how I express that introverted nature. Uh, one of those things is that I absolutely cannot stand big parties. And it's, it's just a part of my, of my personality. I always want like an escape plan to get out of big parties, which is, is really hilarious. There's actually an episode of the office where, um, uh, Jim, and this is way off topic, but, uh, Jim on the office, he's constantly trying to leave this party that, uh, Robert, California, it's in one of the later seasons, a post Michael season for those of you who are office fans, but, uh, he's trying to leave the party and, and he's constantly looking for an escape and he can't ever find one. And I identify with that 110%. It's so funny, uh, how, how our different personalities express themselves. But we still, you know, even with this introverted personality, I do have a point here, even with an introverted personality, maintaining and developing relationships, isn't really an option. I can't just opt out of that. Just because I'm an introvert. I have to find ways that make sense with my personality to develop those deeper relationships and continuously cultivate my network. Yeah. I'm actually a huge fan of the office. I know exactly what episode you're talking about. That's funny. So for me, it's a little different because big parties are like, um, well in New York, there's not a ton of parties, at least like the way I would go back to when I was living in Pennsylvania, because we don't have a lot of space. Right. So if like you've been apart, maybe it's like hard to have a big party, but like going to crowded areas, because there's definitely crowd areas here, um, in New York, it doesn't bother me so much, but it's for me, I get more comfortable around like groups of like, I don't know, like it's so, it's so situational for me. Cause sometimes I feel like I could be a lot more comfortable in a big group of people. I don't know who anyone is versus in like a group of 10 where I do know everyone. I don't know. It just depends on like on like the environment and what's going on. But yeah, no, I, um, yeah, everyone, yeah. Everyone's different. Especially. And I do consider myself introvert. I've taken some of these personalities to in certain ways, I'm introverted in certain ways. I'm definitely not. But then as I just, with the example, like, like needing the time to basically not leave the house over the week, or I just, I just completely like, you know, veg out. Um, I have other friends who I would say are very, very extroverted that that would be like, you know, like, like hell to them, like just staying inside all day. Like they like need to go out and need to be around. People need to be doing things. Actually. My mother is like this. Like my mother goes crazy when she's inside for too long, but I love, like, especially on the weekends, just, just to, um, what's, what's that word? I don't know. Like we'll veg out or just, Oh, decompress. Just totally decompress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You recharge. Yes. Yes. It's like, I need at least one day a week, um, where I'm pretty much not like that. I don't have any responsibilities. I don't check email. I just like sit on the couch or maybe I do leave, but nothing, nothing too ambitious. It's actually very funny that I have this in common. Definitely. Definitely have a day or two days. Uh, and even actually every day at night for, you know, at least 10 to 20 minutes, I need to do something that's relatively, uh, decompression style, right? Like, uh, something totally not valuable to anyone but me. Um, right now, my, my current kind of crutch, I have, uh, the mobile version. If anybody follows me on Twitter, you know, this, the mobile version of rollercoaster tycoon, and I've been playing it far too much. Um, at, at night, just late at night, I'll play it for like 20 minutes and I get that decompression time where I'm not having to give anybody attention. I'm not having to, you know, uh, try to like do the right thing or, uh, you know, entertain anyone. It's just doing nothing. It's just kind of being, it's almost like meditation. Yeah. For me, it's, it's definitely TV shows for sure. I love TV shows, but, and it's cause I know some people like will love to like read books at night, but for me and just my personality, if I start to read like, a really interesting book, I fall asleep. No, actually for, well, like if it was really boring, I would fall asleep, but certain kinds of like books or even podcasts, I used to have to, I had to like slow down listening to podcasts because I would get so like energized. Like, so I would listen to like business podcasts or I would listen to like ones that would get me really like, all of a sudden I'm like taking notes. I'm like doing research online. I'm like, I'm like planning some like huge project or something. Like it's not real. Like it would almost be the opposite of relaxing, but not like, you know, exciting way, not like a stressful way, but it's like, okay, like I just need to do something mindless. And for me, that's like the television. I can just like, like books or podcasts are too like engaging for me. Like I need the mindless, just like watch a funny TV show or even like a, a drama kind of TV show, like, you know, house of cards or something like that. And, um, get really engaged in the story and just like, forget about my real life. Yeah. This is, I mean, there's actually, you know, a lot of people who are listening to this right now are probably, why are we talking about TV? Um, the, the truth is if you were to ask like a selection of five very successful individuals, um, you know, what they do to, to prepare for a week, for example, or like, what, what do you, what do you do on the weekends? You're going to see a pretty large number of them say, I have some time where I am totally 100% resting. And, and it's, it's kind of like a principle, right? We're built to rest, a significant portion of our lives. We're supposed to rest. And if you don't, you're going to burn out. Like it's going to be really bad news for your mental state and for your physical state. If you don't rest. Yeah, definitely. I remember hearing one time like Tony Robbins. Um, I don't know where he was being. He's interviewed, I think on a podcast. Someone's asking him. It's like what he does at night and what he reads and stuff. And he was said exactly the same thing. I kind of just said, well, he was like, I don't read at night. Like I can't, it doesn't not help me fall asleep. I have to watch like a completely mindless show, like family guy, or some other, like, you know, I don't think he said South, but I think he said family guy, but something like to that end where it's just like, kind of like turns my brain off. And I'm this, I like, and once I heard him say that, it made me feel a lot better about like watching TV at night. Cause I like pretty much have to watch TV at night. See, we're going right back to this discussion on guilt and shame. Like we, we have this built in, you know, constantly hustling perspective and, and you have to reject that to ever even rest. It's amazing. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But as you said before, if you are, you're bringing, you know, you're always going, going, going, you're definitely going to burn out at some point. You need something, whether, I mean, maybe it is reading for another person or listening to podcasts for someone else. But yeah, just whatever it is for you, you have to, you have to do that. I've heard, you know, a pretty large cross. Very few people would fault you for reading fiction. This is, this is kind of like the academics. Good. You know, stay in the good graces of the academics. You can read fiction and, and be mindless with that. If you feel too, too convicted about watching TV at night for whatever reason. So yeah, absolutely. Rest is so important. So this is, this is good. Really interesting kind of way to decompose, you know, the way that different people that are, you know, in this industry who are creating media and learning all different kinds of tech information. And, and you're really passionate about learning, specifically, but also, you know, I think you are kind of the, the picture of the digital entrepreneurial age of there's so many possibilities, so many things available just at our fingertips. There's, there's just this whole world of products that are yet to be made and, and they're all in our hands to make. And it's, it's a really exciting time to be a professional in the professional sphere. And, and I'm really thankful that you've been able to, able to share some of that with us today. Yes, of course. Thank you so much again for having me on. And it was a wonderful conversation and yeah, I totally agree that it's a very exciting time to be a professional. I'm so happy that, you know, I chose to get into tech and, you know, here I am several years later and it's very exciting also to see where the future leads with, you know, not just my own career, but with everything else going around in the, yeah, in tech in general. The world around us is incredible. It's incredibly noisy, isn't it? We get messages all the time from various media sources, from all of our interactions in our day to day life. Our phone is buzzing and we can't seem to find a quiet space. And the incredible thing is we really actually need a quiet space. We need the chance for our minds to sit in silence or at the very least sit in, in contemplation, in a quiet, mindful state. And that's exactly what it means to meditate. And if you've never tried meditation before, I highly recommend that you try it out. And the way that I would recommend that you try it out is using Headspace. Headspace is today's sponsor. Headspace is focused on mental health and meditation has been shown to be an effective way to improve your mental health. And this isn't just for people who, uh, believe a particular set of beliefs. This is for everyone. Meditation is for everyone. So go and check out Headspace. It's really a very well done application. I've used it quite a few times. On top of this Headspace is growing. They're growing very fast. They have over 10 million downloads worldwide, and they are building their engineering teams up in San Francisco and in LA. So if you are interested in joining a company that's working to improve the health, the happiness of the world, and you should apply, head over to headspace.com slash join dash us headspace.com slash join dash us. And of course you can go to spec. FM slash headspace to learn more about the application. Uh, really highly recommend that you guys check this out if you never have done a meditation or if you've done it in the past and you stopped because maybe you, maybe some of the videos or the audio that you were using felt boring or cheesy. Uh, headspace is the opposite. Uh, you can get rid of those things. So go check it out. Once again, spec. FM slash headspace. And if you're interested in joining their team, headspace.com slash join dash us. Thank you again to headspace for sponsoring today's episode of developer T. So I have, I have three questions. Two of them. I ask all of my guests, one of them, I'm only asking you, uh, and I might adopt this for other guests. Um, the first one is, do you have any recommendations for books, podcasts, blogs, TV shows, as you mentioned, uh, any other kind of resources that you have been enjoying, uh, regardless of, of why you've been enjoying it, but, uh, things that you've been kind of reading or, or looking over recently that you really appreciate and think other people would appreciate as well. Okay. So first with TV, oh my gosh, well, I have so many favorite TV shows that like span a range of, um, no categories, I guess you could say, I, if you haven't watched Westworld yet and you're into anything, that's like kind of, um, dramatic or it's sort of sci-fi and I'm not really one to be into sci-fi at all. I really didn't think I was going to like it. I kept hearing people talk about Westworld is like probably the best show I've watched in a really long time. I think it's like my, it had me thinking for days. Um, so that's one, it's not like a helpful for your career, but just a really interesting, if you want to completely like leave reality and do something that's like mindless or get engaged in something else aside from work, Westworld is a great, um, outlet for that. Uh, aside from that, something that I've been doing, uh, or a certain resource I've been using is actually lynda.com because they have this whole, you know, this whole course library and tons and thousands of courses. And I've been kind of going to build up my, um, knowledge in a few other areas of my company. So for instance, uh, I, I, I work across departments or teams at my company. So I work a lot with like engineering. I also work a lot with customer care and also like marketing. Uh, but one area I really don't know much about is customer care. So I began, I began taking like a sort of like intro to customer support and other kinds of courses that relate to that. Um, as well as some stuff on like usability testing, cause I want to do some usability testing here at work. But I'm just mentioning Linda because I feel like it has so many good like business kind of skills and, um, things that of course, you know, I love like team tree house and code school and, uh, these other more coding specific only resources. But with Linda, you can get a whole range of things. So I've been doing some of that stuff recently. Uh, yeah. So that's like the, the resources. Yeah. Great. So, uh, going back to Westworld real quick, because, um, first of all, I, I could almost do an entire podcast, not, not just an episode, but a whole other podcast about the show. Um, we enjoyed it, uh, immensely. My wife and I watched Westworld pretty much like in a week or so, uh, over, over Christmas time, the winter break time. And, uh, uh, yeah, I, it was, uh, it was, uh, it was challenging and it was really high, like very well done. Um, if you're a fan of Westerns, by the way, the Western scenes in Westworld, it is, there are Western scenes, believe it or not, but they have done a, a very good job in like retaining some of the, um, the common idioms of the Western, the old Westerns. So like having, having a really strong, uh, and mysterious black hat character. That is a, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, and if you were to watch just one Western scene, you would feel like you were watching a Western. It's very well done from that perspective. Uh, but on the flip side, I would say actually for developers that Westworld could be good for your career because it actually asks a lot of the classic questions about AI, believe it or not. So like, um, you know, questions about consciousness and I don't want to give anything away, but questions about consciousness, uh, questions about, um, I think everybody knows that, that it's, there's some artificial intelligence type stuff in this, in the show, but, uh, you know, questions about what it means to be ethical with, uh, with conscious, you know, uh, artificial intelligence and that kind of stuff. Very, very interesting. Um, certainly an adult show. So, you know, just kind of a word of caution. Don't watch it around your, you know, uh, your child, if you're, if they're not accustomed to that kind of content, but, uh, very, very good in my opinion. Totally agree with that. Okay. So the second question is the, is one of the questions to ask all of the guests that come on the show. If you had 30 seconds to give advice to all developers of, of all experience levels, uh, what would you say to them? Oh man, that is, that's a tricky question just because you said all levels of developers. Um, okay. So I would have to say, and I don't want to be salesy again, but like building a community or building your network, networking is probably the most, um, important thing, at least for me in like my career. And I don't just mean like my full-time job. I mean, through Forbes and the blog and the podcast and everything else, um, investing in like relationship building has been like, you know, it's been like light and day or it's, it's totally changed the trajectory of the show. Um, and I think that's a really good question. Um, and I think that's trajectory of so much that I have done up until this point. And I feel like that can be applicable to anyone in their career, whether they're new or whether they're, you know, more senior, or even if they already have a huge community, just continuing to nurture that. Are there any resources? Because as a developer, who's listening to this and hearing this information, you know, I hear this from other people. My question would be, what do I do today that can help me with my relationships? Like, what is the actionable, you know, an easy step or maybe not easy, but, but like an actionable thing that I can say, Hey, this is something I can work on as a developer who wants to develop new relationships. I may have all of the, all of the desire, but can you give me kind of a pointer in how I can better develop relationships with my coworkers? Yeah. So I first think it totally depends on, um, like who you are and like, and what you enjoy. So for instance, I actually don't enjoy like networking events that much. I much more enjoy one-on-one, like getting coffee, grabbing a drink after work, something like that with like, with the person I'm just a lot more comfortable. So something that I've done and, um, that has worked so well as actually starting my podcast. And then I, mind you, I live in New York city, so that a lot of people live here. So I do have that as a huge advantage. And there has been multiple people that, um, I've had on my show or I've somehow connected through my podcast or maybe through Forbes or something else, not always the podcast. Uh, but it was kind of like an online connection, seeing that we both lived in New York. And then I would be the one to say, Hey, like, maybe we should, you know, grab coffee sometime or a drink after work or, you know, dinner, whatever, you know, whatever feels right. It kind of depends on like, you know, the, the person and what they do and whatnot. Um, so I would say as far as like actionable advice goes, like looking for people in your area. Um, if you're anything like me, who doesn't like those big networking events, like finding someone maybe through like, their blog or podcast, or even like a Facebook group, there's actually been people that I've met through other Facebook groups. Um, there's one that I'm in called tech ladies. And I remember there's been more than one person that I sort of connected with through the Facebook group, ended up talking like through email, um, and then maybe had them on my podcast or interviewed them for a Forbes article or whatever. And then, you know, went out and met them and then in real life and then continue to, um, nurture that relationship after that. So I guess like for me, it's starting online and then, you know, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And then bringing that online, like offline, that relationship that was online, offline. It's very interesting. It's kind of the reason if you look at the average person, they are probably are working with either an extension of a relationship from their, uh, particularly for people who have, um, who went to college, they're probably working with an extension of, or with a direct relationship with someone that they had in college. And part of the reason for this is because we didn't really have much of a choice, uh, in our education, especially for those who, who do go to college, you don't have much of a choice, but to work with and alongside other people, you're kind of put into a community of people that nearly has to talk, right? A lot of times if you live in a dorm, you're assigned a roommate. If you, uh, have any number of classes and pretty much, uh, across the board, you're going to have group group assignments. You're going to be relying on other people. Uh, all the time in that kind of environment. This is one of the values that, uh, that having a, a in-person education might provide if it just a side note, but, um, it's very important that we recognize the value of this person to person interaction. Basically, all you're saying Lawrence is, is that you continue to make new friends and it's not just friends. It's a more complex relationship than that, but you're continuing to connect with other people on some personal, And I think that's a really important thing to do. And I think that's a really important thing to do. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I do, I do try to think of it as, you know, friends. I'm not, I think if you only have the mindset where you're just meeting people for like business opportunities or career opportunities, it's very, um, it's very, it's easy to detect. Yes. Yes, definitely. And, um, I also just as I guess like another thing, I always also tell people who, especially those who say that are struggling to figure out like how they can go about this to provide value first. And then I always hear, I always hear, Oh, but you know, I'm like new in my career. I just graduated college. Like I don't have anything to provide. Um, and I, I know I felt that way early, early on, but then as I kind of grew, um, there's so many ways you could, you could provide value without like being an expert. And that could maybe be, uh, for instance, giving feedback on like a product. So say if you met with someone who was like a co-founder or CEO giving feedback on their idea, right? Like you don't have to be super experienced to do that. And you could give really helpful insights, especially if you put time and thought into it. Another thing, and this is what I try to do all the time now is connect people I know. So say I know someone, you know, two people that I think could really like benefit from knowing one another. I'll introduce them to each other, which is giving value, right? Especially if, you know, well, you know, I asked them first and everything to make sure it's okay to do the intro data, but that's another way to give value. That doesn't mean, you know, you're, you have to, you have to be an expert or something on any topic. Uh, and then I also, I think it's really important to give value to people who are there's even more ways like beyond that to, to, to help someone out. Yeah. Everybody has value to give. And if you feel like you don't have value to offer, that is a, I would say kind of a modified form of imposter syndrome. Like I felt this way, actually, personally, when I've gone to, uh, to conferences, because it's easy, it's a little bit easier for me to sit behind a mic and talk. And, um, you know, this goes out to thousands of people and, and it doesn't really hit me when I go to a conference, that, you know, a lot of those people may have listened to the show or that, that, that I now have an opportunity, like a lead in and say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm the host developer T and that gives me a chance to, you know, have a discussion with, with a bunch of people. I still have this kind of, uh, social anxiety when I, when I show up at a conference, uh, of people that I, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not sure that I feel confident walk, just walking up and talking to them. Right. And this is just an imposter. I feel like an imposter at those, at those conferences sometimes, because I feel like I'm, I'm the new guy and they've all been around since the internet was created. Right. Um, but that's not, that's usually not true. It's usually not true that you are an, that you are the new guy or the new girl. Uh, and it's also usually not true that you have nothing to provide. And a lot of other people are standing around looking at you as if they are the imposter and you're the one that's been there since the beginning of the internet. And plenty of space to walk up to each other and just share that vulnerability, right? It's, that's what creates relationships. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. So, uh, the last question, and this will wrap up the interview today, but the last question that I like to ask every guest that comes on the show, what do you wish more people would talk to you about? Huh? That's a really good one. What do I wish more people would talk to me about? Oh man. So you, I assume you just mean, yeah, you mean in general, like I can like kind of take this, when you say people, I mean, I can like, I can think of it either at work or outside of work or something. Yeah. It's totally, totally, totally open. Yeah. Um, you know, I, okay. I don't know if this is like a cop-out or something, but I feel like at work, um, like at my full-time job, I, you know, I came in, just for reference, it's like a fast moving startup did it. I guess it's just also my personality. I love to have like feedback and stuff. Um, I wish I was given more feedback at work. Like I w so what I mean by that is I wish like people were, there was more, um, communication around like ways I could do my job better and not just from like my boss. I mean, like from everyone that I work with, like peers, like, Oh, like, you know, um, almost like constructive criticism or something. Right. Like saying, Oh, like if you would do this, this would make my life easier. And then, well, it would also make my life easier. Cause I wouldn't know how to make their life easier. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, so just more constructive feedback from people. Yeah. So I'm just, again, I'm just thinking in the, in the, in the, um, in like the frame of like my full-time job, not, you know, outside of that. Um, but yeah. So, and you know, as I'm, I'm actually in my office now while at another part of my office recording the interview. So it gets this very top of mind for me right now. But, uh, yeah, I think, you know, and I think having that kind of feedback is so important. I always try. So I do have people who work for me, um, as well here. And I always try to, I guess, maybe I, I guess it depends on managers. I'm a little hands-on maybe you could say, and I definitely love to give like a lot of feedback and have people ask me questions and, you know, answer their questions. Um, but yeah, I wish, I wish I had some more of that, I guess, at this moment in my job that where I was getting the feedback. Yeah. And it's important to, like, especially for those of us who have other people working kind of under our lead, uh, it's important for us to, to propagate this as kind of a system, right? Like one thing that I do with the developers at whiteboard, uh, it's kind of a weird thing that we do, but every week we have this kind of a check-in meeting and, you know, we do other meetings that are more focused on specific work that we are actively engaged in. We have, you know, our daily kind of standup type meetings, but we, we have this meeting where we kind of all, all the developers come into a room and we sit down and we throw out how we are doing. And I've, what I've enforced is that it's, we have to objectify it, right? Because, um, it's easy to, to assume that somebody who says, oh, I'm doing okay, that they're doing really terrible, right? Uh, when really what they meant by okay is I'm actually doing very well. So, uh, we have this very simple rating system, one to two, and we have this very simple rating system, one to two, and we have this very simple rating system, one to two, and we have this very simple rating system, one to two, and we have this How are you doing? And what it has created, um, we don't record it. We don't do any of that. We just have created a space that says somebody on our team is not doing super well, or, uh, somebody's like really frustrated about this project. Now we have the opportunity to ask, how are we going to fix it? Right? Like, how can we do this thing better? And, um, it has created a really interesting space for, for feedback because it's almost like a, you know, it's like a, you know, like, um, a reactionary feedback rather than a proactive feedback, but it has, it has worked quite well, I would say, um, in, in, in getting us to, to communicate better with each other. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, definitely. And yeah, it really does just all kind of come back down to like communication at the end of the day. Right. Um, but yeah, I think, especially when things are moving quickly and, you know, that could be at any size company. Um, it can be hard to make time. Um, and, and, you know, that said, and now, now I'm like, you know, it's also, I think the responsibility of someone. So like me in this instance to ask for feedback, um, it's like a two way street, right? So having, whether it's a manager or a coworker up here, um, you know, be, uh, you know, no, no, no express. Like if you're, if you know how you can help make their lives easier or whatever that may be. And then at the same time though, asking for that feedback. So maybe tomorrow I'll add that to like my to-do list and my I'll take, I'll take time to ask specifically, ask people how I could, you know, improve certain things that I'm doing. Yeah. It's funny. You mentioned you're going to take time and actually put on your calendar, uh, this idea of like distilling these ideals or these plans into actions. Uh, that's really what I want people who are listening to this episode. If you didn't do that, go back and re-listen to some of this stuff and write down, you know, actionable ways that you can act on the information that you're getting. Otherwise, a lot of the content that we take in on the internet, we read it and it impacts us on some emotional or energetic level. And then we turn around and it's actually funny. You mentioned this earlier that when you're listening to podcasts, you have a hard time not doing this, but, uh, we turn around and we don't have anything tangible to, to actually do with that information or with that energy. Instead, we've, we've failed to make a system that supports our, our newfound knowledge. So, uh, definitely, uh, definitely a good, a good last. Little bit of information or, uh, uh, a cool tip that you accidentally gave her. Yeah. As I, one of my favorite things to say is, um, if it's not in my calendar, it doesn't exist. So I will use my calendar to just give myself little reminders for like later in the week or something, or even like months in advance sometimes. But, and you know, of course I get to the day sometimes, especially if it's months in advance and I realize whatever the reminder was, is like no longer relevant. But I think just the, the act of writing something down, um, and, and, or for me typing something down is, um, is, is great. It really helps you. Like it just instills it in your mind. I could talk about that for a long time, but we're going to wrap up this interview instead. Uh, so thank you so much again, Laurence for, uh, for coming on the show. I know it's a little ways off, but you're the next season of your podcast is coming out. Uh, I believe it's next month. You said, correct? It's March 28th. Yes. That's the 10th of launch date of season three of the show. That's fantastic. So, uh, everyone go and subscribe. I assume that if they subscribe to the existing feed, that they'll be updated whenever the new one comes out. Yes. Yes. Of course. Okay. You can find it on, uh, learn to code with.me forward slash podcast, or if you are listening on iTunes, you can find it at learn to code with.me forward slash iTunes. Oh, very cool. All right. Well, that go and go and subscribe and check out the great stuff. There's also, I'm assuming there's an RSS feed on your blog and all of those wonderful things. Yes. Uh, so we will include show notes of course, to, to all of these great resources that Lawrence has created. Thank you again for your time tonight. And, uh, thank you for coming on the show and sharing with, uh, with the audience. Yep. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of developer tea. Thank you to today's awesome sponsor headspace. If you are not trying out meditation yet, and you're looking for a way to level up in your career, but you're not really sure where to look. Uh, one of the best ways to learn is to go to the website, the website, the website, the website, the website, the website, how to focus, how to practice, how to focus is headspace. Go and check out what headspace has to offer to you. Oh, and by the way, don't forget headspace is hiring. So if you are looking for an opportunity to work at a company that cares about mental health above everything else, then go and check out what headspace has to offer in terms of jobs. You can find out more about the jobs that headspace has at headspace.com slash join dash us. That's headspace.com slash join dash us. Thank you again for listening to today's episode of developer tea. And until next time, enjoy your tea.