Hey, everyone, welcome to developer team. My name is Jonathan Cottrell. Thank you so much for listening to the show. Today I'm interviewing Rachel neighbors. We've talked with Rachel before on the show back in January, over a year and a half ago. And since then, Rachel has written a new book, we're going to talk all about it. Rachel is best known in the web development community for being kind of the authority or one of the few authorities on animation. So we're going to talk with Rachel about that. Thank you so much for listening to developer tea today. I'm going to get out of the way. And we can get straight into the interview with Rachel neighbors. Rachel, welcome back to developer tea. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. This is your second interview. And I'm excited to have you on the show again, for for many reasons. First of all, the first interview went quite well, but also because you have more to talk about. That's exactly correct. I have been very busy like that hen I let wander into the forest who disappeared for a while and then came back leading a string of chicks behind her when I was a child. I have come back on air after the successful publication of my very first technical book with a book about a book apart. A book apart. And if you if people are listening to this, they don't know what a book apart is. First of all, I assume that they are not web developers, because a book apart, or it's a part of a list apart, correct? It's true. They are both born of the same group of people headed by Jeffrey Zeldman. And a book apart is sort of the in print counterpart to the online a list apart or the in person event apart. It's kind of, it's kind of been my dream publisher since I first got into front end development. So I'm really proud. It's about Oh, I guess I should tell you what it's about. It's called animation at work. And it is the shortest thing you will ever read that will tell you everything you need to know about incorporating user interface animations into your web design, and how to communicate them across teams and to developers and designers alike. So you said it was, or is a technical dive. Correct? Well, it doesn't actually have any code in it. Okay, I have to, I have to qualify that this is my first technical book. Because, I mean, it is technical in that it dives into the, like the first chapter is about the science of how the brain perceives motion and form and color. And there's another chapter that's like how to pass on animation to developers so that they can completely perfectly reproduce it. It's, it's pretty awesome. But I, I use the word tech specifically, not because it's loaded with code, but to distinguish it from my previous two publish publications. You see, back in the day, I used to self publish my own graphic novels. I used to be discussed this on the previous episode, I think. Yes. So it's not the first time I've been in print, although it is the first time I've been in print from a publishing company. So that makes me very happy. Very good. So in the sense that it is technical. The technical that you're talking about there is not code technical or math technical, but more about it is a nonfiction book intended to help you implement animation in a given web project. But it could very well apply also, for example, to a native application project. That's right. Would that be correct? Absolutely. The lessons, the lessons in here, especially when it comes to animation. Adding patterns and purpose to your, your interfaces and where motion design can give you the biggest cognitive payoffs. There's extend in their utility beyond the web into the realm of native interface development as well. There you go. And so if I go to a book apart.com right now, by the way, Rachel's book is at the top in the, in the kind of the, that main area where they're displaying all the books down below in the grid, but you get the full width, the full width features. Right. So that's, that's a good point. That's pretty cool. Mine is the, the, what I call the electric lavender one. There you go. I remember they let me choose the color and I, I've been on a lavender kick. So I came running right up and I was like lavender and it, it just, it, it tickled everyone. Yeah. And you're sitting alongside authors like, for example, Remy Sharp is, is in this list. And the foreword was by Dan Mall. And it's a, is a completely legitimate. Yeah. Work here that you've done. So I just want to say a huge congratulations to, to you for releasing it. And also for developers who want to learn about, you know, not just how do you make animation happen, right? Because there's plenty of resources where we can go and read a tutorial and copy and paste some code and we don't know anything about why or what we're doing with easing, for example. You know, this is the kind of thing that. And I assume, Rachel, this is the stuff that really you're unpacking and helping people understand is why would I choose to use easing in a given scenario? Exactly. It's all about the why and where. It's a, how did I put it? I think Chris Coyier, no, no, no. It was Aaron Gustafson said it's less about the how to implement and it's more about the where and when to use it and why. Yeah. There's an entire section about the different kinds of easings and when it's more appropriate to have an acceleration versus a deceleration on an element. So, yes, it's definitely, it's the book I wish I had five years ago when I started out on my animation journey. It's the culmination of all the work that I've done with my great clients and with the great people in the web development community. That's awesome. And also, by the way, Chris Coyier has done. I'm on a book for this brief, a book apart briefs, which I think. Oh, no. Oh, his is printed, but practical SVG. It says. Yeah. And it's a great book. You should totally check it out. Yeah. While you're checking out my book. Absolutely. Well, and that's the thing. So this book is if you're a web developer and you haven't really learned about the theory and a deeper understanding of animation. This is going to be probably the best eight dollars. Rachel is not paying me, by the way. Just letting everybody know here. This is going to be an excellent eight dollars that you spend. But Rachel is also providing developer T listeners a 10 percent discount for using by using the code Dev T. That's D.E.V.T.E.A. When you go to a book apart to check out, of course, you can find this in the show notes at spec.fm as well. But you can also go to BK. A. P. R. T. Which is like a short link. BK. A. P. R. T. Dot com slash Dev T. And I think that automatically applies that 10 percent. Is that right? Yep. And takes you right to the right to the book. Awesome. In addition to this little coupon, I heard some people magically telepathically over the airwaves or rather through international cables. I heard someone out there go, oh, but I really wanted to learn how to code some animations. Well, they would be. In luck. I happen to also have a CSS animations and transitions course at my site. Courses dot Rachel neighbors dot com. And if you use the same coupon code Dev T all caps, you can get 10 percent off that as well. Wow. That's excellent. And that's going to be significant savings, significantly more than if you were to use it just on the book. And it's not like you have a expiration. You can only use it on one or the other. You can use it on both today. Right. They're the perfect pair. Again, I just want to reiterate, we don't do native advertising on developer T. I just think that Rachel is kind of set herself up as as the authority on the subject in many ways. And if you are a web developer in your you haven't had a chance to learn about this stuff, either from the technical implementation detail side, which is what the course is, is primarily for or from the more theoretical side. Perhaps you have a little bit of those those coding chops and you want to learn why you're you know, when is a good time to use this stuff, then go and check out the book. I want to kind of back up a little bit here because we've we've given the pitch here. And of course, you know, anybody with eight dollars, I assume, is going to be relatively compelled to go and buy this book. But I want to talk a minute about actually creating a book as a developer. And beyond that, creating this course, because this is this is a lot, a lot of work. I know I tried to do both of these things. And yeah, I have. I was tried to do a little bit of a of a course. And it turns out that I'm just it's significantly harder for me to be in front of a camera than it is to be behind a microphone. So if I'm going to do a course, it's probably going to be a little ways off in the future. That's one thing I tried. And then I also. This is a while back. I had a publishing deal undisclosed kind of thing and ultimately didn't didn't pan out. It was a lot of work. I wasn't prepared for the level of work. And you've actually conquered both of these things. I'd like to talk with you a little bit about that. Absolutely. In fact, given that I've already been on your show to talk about animations and how to use them, I'm fine if we spend the rest of the show talking about courses and books. Sure. And maybe some of your listeners. Are thinking about getting into this deal. Well, let's let's take a moment and kind of unpack why. Why would a developer like you or me? Why would we go into this kind of difficult and arduous process of writing a book or creating a course? Well, there are many different reasons. And I have to say mine is probably the more altruistic one, which might be why I no longer work as a web animations consultant. Although I would say that might be more to do with the niche ness of that particular field. Sure. It's kind of hard to make a living off something quite so niche, but it is something worth sharing. And it was from that that mentality of I want to share what I've learned that I created these things. So, for instance, I know some people they create a course because they want to say, I am the person who came up with this library, came up with this technique. I want to own this. I want to own this space. I want everyone to look up to me. Or maybe I'm writing this book because I want it to generate leads. You know, if you write a book, you set yourself up as being the, you know, content strategy or UX expert, especially if you have a special spin you can put on it. You know, that will generate clients for you, hopefully down down the line in the future. But for me, it was more like I've taken these things as far as I can. I've been successful. I've been studying these for five years. I've been working with people for a long time. I'm ready for something new. I want to pass all this information on. I want to make sure that that it's not just stuck in my head and then it goes and becomes the thing from which other people continue this work. Because it's getting to the point in the web animation world where the big leaps forward are going to come from people doing even more niche work than what I've already done. Building niche libraries. Or like doing things that are not niche. Doing the research on how people use animations and how they can better interface development. There's still work to be done. And now we've got a good bookmark from which people can launch that work. So I came from an altruistic place. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. And that's not everybody's, not everybody shares that necessarily, but it certainly is. There's nothing wrong. For many people, this is the reason I created Developer Tea. I mean, a large. A drive for me is emails that I get when people say, hey, thank you so much. Or, you know, you've helped me in X, Y, and Z ways. And that's, Rachel, I know that you're not trying to say, you know, hey, look at me. I'm being altruistic. But it truly is a driving purpose for a lot of people. So if you're a web developer and you have, you know, some knowledge that you want to share, maybe you have figured out a particular. A career path that is useful for, I don't know, college graduates. And you want to help other college graduates. A course may be a perfect opportunity to do that. Or even something like an e-book or, you know, whatever. Creating this content that helps other people and forwards, you know, regardless of whether or not you're going to, you know, get rich off of it. That's not really the point, right? The point is, hey, I've got this information. And I don't really know how to help other people with it other than to share it. Right. I mean, I have talked with many people who have written books for, you know, various reasons. And everyone who wrote the book to make money was disappointed. Maybe it tangentially will generate money by, you know, sourcing new clients, new projects, pushing you up so that you can command a better salary. Staking your claim, leaving a, you know, I was here. Maybe you wrote a spec for. And you'd like to write an O'Reilly book that's all about how to use it because who would know it better than you? And this way, it's your way of getting acknowledgement for your hard work. Like, there are many different reasons for writing a book. But money should not be one of them. You will most likely be greatly disappointed. Yeah. And I would say even, you know, even if it's a side route to money, right? If your intention is to only to develop authority or only to. Further your name so that you can increase your salary. It's very likely that you're going to at some point feel a pretty significant amount of burnout over that. I know a lot of people who have actually pulled it off. You know, that was their thing that they did. And now that's it. I mean, it's a way of self-expression. I can't hold that against somebody. I can't think of a better way of pushing your own career forward than helping other people. Yeah. So maybe I should. I should. Qualify what I'm saying a little bit more with, you know, if you're only pushing your career forward in a way that isn't enjoy. Like, if you are not enjoying your career, if you're trying to push it forward, then that's a different thing. Right. If. Yes. If you enjoy what you do and you have a chance to, you know, further what you do. If you appreciate the work that you do and you want to get deeper in or generate authority in that same space. Then luckily. As it turns out, you're not going to be bored out of your mind every day, at least writing a book. Now, I do want to talk about that a little bit deeper with you, though, Rachel. First, we're going to take a quick break and talk about today's sponsor, Dolby. So much of our time as developers, especially web developers, is spent thinking about what our site or what our experience looks like. And so many times we think about the experience that we're. Building only in terms of what it looks like in all of the language that we use around a given design, a visual language that we use is about that view. And the reality is there's so much more that you can take advantage of when you're creating these experiences for your users. 90% of users say that audio is important to them. Right. Digital device users. They rank sound quality as important. Across. Right. Across the digital entertainment ecosystem, not just when they are watching videos or listening to music, but also when they're using applications, when they're using your web application, nine out of 10 users, that's 90% are going to care about that quality, that audio quality. And the reality is you may not need any additional recording equipment to make your audio quality better. What you probably need is a better codec. And that's. Exactly what Dolby offers. Dolby's codec allows your users to hear the things that you have in your audio already. They can hear it better with Dolby's codec. You can get started with it by using the tools that you already use, like Adobe audition, for example, and you can also use Dolby's free online encoding utility. Now you're probably thinking if you're a web developer that it doesn't apply to you, but in fact, this Dolby codec works in. On HTML five projects. On devices like the iPhone seven. So go and check out what Dolby has to offer. You can head directly over by going to spec. Dot. FM slash Dolby. That's spec. Dot. FM. Slash Dolby. Thank you again to Dolby for sponsoring today's episode of developer T. Now let's get back to this question that we started to talk about, about writing this book. Rachel. What points were the most difficult? In the process of writing the book, we'll start with the book and then I do want to talk about the course as well. But in writing a book, what is the most some of the more sticky, difficult stages of writing a book? Well, first off, they're submitting the book. This is the hardest part. Now you could self publish. And if you self publish, you'll have a lot more control. Like if you want to go to Amazon's create space and make printed copies available through Amazon's. Huge distribution network. That's totally on you to do. But you're going to be completely responsible for all the promotion. You're probably going to want to hire an editor because if you think you can write a book without an editor, you really can't. You can't. Yeah. You need editors. Editors make your book better. It's one of the reasons why I chose a book apart as my publisher is because they have such a stellar editorial team. I got to work with Cattell Ledoux and oh my gosh, Lisa Maria Martin. And they were just a great team. They did a great job bringing this book to print as it were. That said, the hardest part was the submissions process. And I used to make comics for a living. And I used to know all these cartoonists who had great ideas in their head. You know, they had this epic, epic novella that they were going to realize in pictures and words. And they could never bring themselves to submit it to a publisher or even put it online. It would just be something that they were constantly making. They were always talking about what they were going to do and they were never actually doing it. And I was just like, well, I'm going to self-publish because I've got a large audience and there are no publishers for girls' comics in the United States. And that worked out great for me back in the day. But for this turn, I really wanted that steal of approval from someone else. And I wanted an editorial team, a really good editorial team. So I went to a book apart. I put together my little submissions packet. Kind of like a book. I had to muster myself up to it because it's very intimidating to send your baby off to get judged by other people. I finally started feeling a little bit of that distress that I had noticed back in comics. And I sent it off. And I waited. And I waited. And I got turned back at the UK border. And I was staying at a person's house. And I got, yeah, that was a long story. So it was like the worst possible mindset to receive a rejection email. And I was just like, oh. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh, they didn't like it. Oh, no. And it wasn't one of those rejection emails where it's like, oh, if you made some changes, we'd work with you. Or, you know, we would love to talk about some. No, it was just flat out. Nah, we're not into this. But if you want to talk with us about why that is, you know, we can give you some pointers. And I was like, well, I was in a dark place. And I thought, at the very least, I can learn something from this experience. And take that with me to the next publisher. Or use it to help make. A better book. Like, this is a book apart. If they got beef with my submission, my outline, and the sample chapter that I've written, I want to know what it is. So I swallowed my pride, you know, dabbed away the tears. And I said, I'm going to take you up on that offer of talking. I'd be really happy to talk with an editor like you about, you know, what I can do to make this a better book, even if it's not with you. And it turned out that over the conversation, we realized that we both had the same qualms. With the outline. And, like, I didn't submit something perfect to them. I submitted what I had. Because I had been putting off and putting off submitting. I finally was like, I can't make it perfect without someone else's help. I'm just going to have to submit it as is. So we got to talking. And it turns out that we both were dissatisfied with the same things. And, well, they were happy to. They liked my vision and what I was going for. And I really liked. I really liked them and their feedback. It was very constructive. So we went ahead and did it anyway. That's excellent. So I want to hover on this point for a second. That's a huge lesson. Right? That's just on its own is a huge lesson. It really is. Because what you learned. So you correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just going to tell you back what I think you're telling me. You went through this process. It's a really difficult thing just to get to the place where you're ready to say, yes, please look at this and tell me how bad or how good it is. Right? Like it's already pretty difficult because you respect these people a lot. Oh, yeah. They've published a lot of, you know, for me, I cut my teeth on a book apart and a list apart. And I really learned a lot of my earliest skills from them. And the stuff they published. So, you know, I can only imagine sending this thing to say, hey, please, you know, give me give me your thoughts to someone you respect so much. And then to receive that rejection in a really difficult place. Most people, I would assume most people would then turn around and not send anything. Right. They would they would cut the tie and say, I knew I wasn't cut out for this. And I knew that this was a bad idea. And I was right. To be nervous about all of this and et cetera, et cetera. And what you did was antithetical to that. Instead, you said, OK, I'm going to use this what feels like a failure to learn. Even if it's even if the feedback is difficult to hear, I want to hear it. And ultimately, just the step of saying I want to learn from this resulted. Ultimately, I assume that there's some pretty good communication skills employed in that conversation. But ultimately. Yeah. Ultimately, it ended up in reversing that decision, reversing the decision of the people that you revere so much. And that is a massive win for you. Would you agree that all that? That's a pretty good summation of the lesson. I would agree. It's it was kind of incredible at the time. And the way you put it is like it's still inspiring to me to this day. You know, even when you're in a bad place, just trying to learn what you can in that bad place. Instead of taking it into your heart and internalizing it as a confirmation of all your worst fears is the best you can do. And when you internalize things, it's almost like you're cutting off all the futures that could be because you're telling yourself, no, I can't have that. I'm not good enough. And that's that's a real shame. And there's no one who can inflict that lack of opportunity on yourself other than you. Yeah. The best thing you can do. Is learn why this thing that you want so badly isn't going to come to pass. I actually listened to. Have you ever heard the Hidden Brain podcast? I haven't. Is it good? Well, I'm assuming. Very good. So conceptually, it's about it's in many ways very similar to some of the stuff we talk about here, except the host is significantly more authoritative than I am. And I can't remember his name off the top of my head. But I've listened to it only a handful. Of times and more recent episode. I think it's a reposted episode, actually. But it's called Brain 2.0. That's kind of the preface. And then whoop. W.O.O.P. It's a framework for thinking about what you wish for your obstacles, how you're going to overcome it. And quite honestly, I don't remember what the P stands for. But the first three things are the most important part. And it's interesting that you mention it that that way. That the only. Person who's really standing in the way or more importantly, the more the only person who can inflict that level of giving up in you is you. Right. It's it's kind of this this strange and ironic, almost tragic reality that the most harmful person to you very well could be you. Yeah. I often, you know, I have a spouse and I don't have the greatest relationship. With my mom. But every once in a while, my husband will pull me over and be like, you know, you sound like your mom right now. I can almost hear your mom criticizing you when you're saying that you're you're cutting yourself off before you've even given yourself a chance. And you've got to be wary of that because sometimes discount you discount the future before you even you've even taken a crack at it. And OK, I'm not saying just put on a smile and everything will come to you because that's that is so not true. And I've experienced firsthand that. Just. Having a positive attitude isn't going to solve everything. And sometimes there are things that are so sad that you can't you can't overcome them by grinning. All you can do is weather it and try to take something away from it. So it's not a total loss. Yeah. And in this case, I just wanted the feedback because I figured, well, it'll be another publisher next time or I'll publish it myself. The most I can get out of this is I can find out if the qualms I have about this. Are founded or maybe they have some really good advice they could give me. And if I get really snobby or upset or, you know, I'm going to take my toys and go home or I'm not good enough, I'm going to go over here and cry. You know, if I if I took any of those and I can totally take that path later. But the first thing I need to do is I need to say, OK, I appreciate your feedback. That's really good to know. I'm glad that you know what you want. That's awesome. Now, tell me what I can learn. Yeah. Yeah. It's great perspective that most people, I would say most people have a difficulty rising to that level. Right. And I do. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine that anybody would look at that and say, oh, that's that's easy. I think even even experienced publishers, you know, who have and you are an experienced publisher, but even people who have multiple books, rejection still is a very human thing. And. Rising above that and saying, OK, you know, I acknowledge my emotions. Right. I don't deny that this was hurtful or that this was difficult, but I also don't want to end the story at the hurt. I want to move forward and say, OK, the the the difficulty is not the the way that I'm going to mark this story. It's not the the final part of this story. I'm going to continue on. And to take this and parlay it, the best thing that I can get out of this now is to learn something from it. Yeah. And I'm really glad I took that chance. And I'm glad they took the chance on me because I've learned even more from going through this. Sure. Yeah. So getting back into the process of writing, what is another difficult part of the writing process? Was there ever a time, for example, where you sat down to write and your brain just wouldn't cooperate? Always. Well, apparently not always. You ended up with a book. Well, it can be a little intimidating. Having goals and deadlines really helped. For instance, my publisher set up a Gantt flowchart of you need to have X, Y, and Z done by this date and this date. And you don't always hit every date perfectly. There's a lot of communication that needs to happen in there. But sometimes, like especially when we were hashing out the initial, like the way it should look, I would get stuck on something and I wouldn't know what to do. But here's the thing. If you are writing a book about something you are very passionate or excited about, it's not too hard to come up with content. I would, if I got stuck on something, I would go back to old blog posts or tweets that I'd written. You know, I'd go look for one of my Twitter rants. I'd be like, oh, 60 frames. Your second is a lie. That doesn't have anything to do with how retinas actually work. And I'd be like, you know, I really should put that in there. That goes into the science section. And I would just look back at the wealth of information, the articles I'd made for A List Apart itself, all those things to flesh out the book, as it were. I didn't find it too difficult. But I think what I did have trouble with. Well, how do I? I put this editing, having your baby torn apart. And for some people, they just can't stand that. You know, they submit a book, practically finished, fully written. And they just want someone to publish it, put that publisher's seal of approval on it, and then to say that they did it on their own. The problem is that's probably a book that could be even better. You know, we talk about in animation, in studio animation, there's this term called plussing that comes from the Disney day. Walt Disney was a big believer in plussing, where you just go a little bit further, a little bit extra to make something a little bit better than it would have been if you'd just been like, there, done. That's called plussing. And for me, editing is plussing a book. Editing is what got this book so thin and so narrow. And I have a saying that I like things that are concise. It's one of the reasons I love A Book of Parts books. It's because I don't like fluff. I don't like books that are always telling you. And in another chapter, we'll get into that. And there's just paragraph after paragraph of stories about other people that are only tangential to what's going on in the actual book. Some folks really enjoy that. That's awesome. But for me, I just want the meat. I want to know what it is. I want the CliffsNotes. And then I want to get out of there. And working with A Book of Part helped me trim all the fat off, which makes me really happy, even though it was a little painful here and there. We had a good dialogue back and forth, though. So if they were like, we don't know if this should be in here, I would be like, well, hang on there. I think this is pretty useful. When I'm giving a talk in the audience, they ask me this question, and this is how I answer. So it's pertinent. And sometimes I'd be like, you know what? I'm going to pick my battles. If you don't think that paragraph is necessary, go ahead. Kind of after a while, it's like you divorce yourself a little bit from it, if you can. And just let it go. It's like, do you really want to argue? Or do you want to see the book go on to print? Is it really necessary that that one sentence you think is so clever be there for all the world to see? If it's really just a clever sentence in the middle of a sea of words? And there is a saying that you have to repeat something three times for people to remember it. And that totally makes sense if you're giving a talk or you're filming a documentary. But books are not experienced linearly. Books can be reread. Books can be checked out and, you know, like open to a certain page. They can be referenced. I believe if I write a good enough book, people will read it three times. Especially a book like this. Oh, yeah. Right? A book that is bites. I don't want to say bite-sized. That's the wrong way of characterizing it. But a book that is, you know, it's intentionally brief. Right? It's intentionally to the point. It's cut down. And it almost acts as like a handbook. A reference. A guide for returning back to. And how many pages are in this book, by the way? I guess an e-book doesn't have the equivalent. I'll be honest. The e-book was so beautiful that I had a copy of it turned into a bound copy that I can pass people at signings. How cool. Yeah, that's awesome. It's actually 75 pages. If it were a regular book apart book size, you would put, in your hand, it's 75 pages. I know people who finish it in a single weekend. So it's a good investment. Yeah. And to me, you know, it's obviously developer T believes in doing things small and short and brief on purpose. You know, almost truncating what you otherwise would have said. Because, you know, this people don't really attach a linear meaning to the amount of content that you have. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Content that you've put into something. Right. And in fact, as it turns out, people begin to attach a, if you're, if we're thinking in algorithms, kind of a log, logarithmic, uh, uh, looking, uh, graph, right. This kind of, uh, uh, diminishing returns. This is what I'm getting at here. And, you know, that, that content that you get so attached to, it's, it is very difficult. I do the same thing. I actually, a lot of my job now is, writing, uh, a business strategy and a lot of internal documentation and internal work at Whiteboard to try to shape the way that we do things, right, as a company. And so much of my appreciation for writing comes from, you know, fully establishing an idea and exploring all that that idea has to offer, right? And it's really difficult to say, you know what, I've said essentially the same thing three times now and to cut one of those three things, right? Because all three of them are meaningful to me and they help explore the same concept multiple ways and really get the full picture for it. And ultimately the reader doesn't care, right? And that's kind of a difficult reality to resign to. The things that are important to you are not always important to the audience that you're speaking to. I've been reading about because one of my core skills is communication. And they say you should, like, instead of just being a generalist with some good skills, you should be a specialist with some great skills. So I've been looking into rhetoric, especially since I've been seeing it used in some uncool ways these days. And I love this idea of ethos and pathos. And ethos is the face that you show people. You want, like, the ability to get people to believe in you. For instance, there's the Rachel who is a web animations expert. And I could show you that when I get on stage. Or there's the Rachel who used to self-publish comics. I could show you that independent, creative side of Rachel. Or I could show you, you know, the Rachel who was raised on a farm. I could show you the farm girl Rachel. All of those fall into the ethos. That's how you want to present yourself. Pathos is the emotions you want to evoke in the audience. And sometimes you have to pick and choose what you're going to show the audience. And sometimes you have to pick and choose what you're going to show the audience. They don't need all of it. They don't need all three Rachels. They need the one that speaks to them and solves their problem. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I trust that you heard the two ethos, the ethoses, I guess, I'm not sure what the plural is, from Rachel and I today, that you needed to hear. And I hope that this episode was encouraging to you, and perhaps positively challenging. Thank you so much for listening. Again, this show exists to help you become a better developer. And we do that in so many different ways. And we do that by having vulnerable conversations like what Rachel and I had on today's episode. And we do it in a hundred other ways. We talk about things that are challenging. We talk about, you know, ambiguous problems. There's tons of stuff that we talk about on the show. And I hope that it's valuable to you. And if it is, I encourage you to go and subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes, including part two of this interview with Rachel. Thank you, so much for listening. Thank you again to today's sponsor, Dolby. You can use Dolby in the browser to help users hear your audio more clearly. Go and check it out, spec.fm slash Dolby. Thank you again for listening. And until next time, enjoy your tea.